The Letterville BullBoard: I think I'm bad for my business!

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Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :

LOL! Something is starting to dawn on me. After returning to work fulltime from being off nearly 2 years, I feel I have alot less tolerance in the BS department where people and projects are concerned.

Where I use to sweetly smile through mud slinging to keep face and gain jobs, I'm blunt in a professional way and state my terms. Sometimes I'm a little too blunt and wish I had a delete key for real life.

I don't have a clue how some of you guys get away with telling people to take their nickle and diming and go find somewhere else to play, or along those lines. To quote high because that's what your jobs are worth etc.

I think I'm playing mind games with me. I know I'm doing the right thing but maybe in the wrong manner that makes me feel good.

I think I'd better hire someone who loves mornings, can be nice to jerks, knows how to play mind games to get ahead, etc. I'm starting to feel like Liar Liar, the movie with Jim Carrey where he thinks out loud telling everyone what he really thinks of them!

So, think I should quit and hire someone who's still into BS? LOL

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Graphic Impact
Abbotsford, BC, Canada
gisigns@sprint.ca

Posted by Adrienne Pereira (Member # 1046) on :

Your just being straight forward.....it's a good thing..I wish I was more like that.

Bet you start getting more respect now!!
And $$$$$
You go wit yo' BAD SELF girl!!!!!

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Adrienne Morgan
Splash Signs
www.splashsigns.com
"Rainkatt'on chat

Benicia, CA
707-550-4553
adrienne@splashsigns.com

Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :

Maybe I should just add, because of my bluntness and prices, I'm losing work. I may get the odd job that pays better in the long run, but I wish for more than odd jobs. Arg... I need a game manual to refresh my approach!

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Graphic Impact
Abbotsford, BC, Canada
gisigns@sprint.ca

Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :

donna pick up a copy of CO-DEPENDANT NO MORE....you sound like you feel guilty for tellin the truth....so your your own worst critic right now....

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joe pribish-A SIGN MINT
2811 longleaf Dr.
pensacola, fl 32526
850-944-5060
BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND

Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :

Donna, our projects a typically rahter large ones, but Rosemary doesn't turn away the nickel dime schtuff. That 5/10 often turns into larger ones later down the road. We don't "tip our hats" to any other shops I can think of, but we don't hold our own value so high that we can't bend with the wind for the little schtuff. Do what your heart tells you and don't worry about the opinions of the high-rollers.

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St.Marie Graphics
& Makin' Tracks Sound Studio
Kalispell, Montana
stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com
800 735-8026
We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)

Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :

Actually Donna I have the same problem as you. I am brutally honest.....and don't care for B.S. much either. I really got tired of the people who came into my shop wanting a 20.00 sign....but wanted to waste an hour of my time 'designing'. I have gotten real good at B.S.ing right back. Such as.....I have another call coming in click! or I will get back to you on that click or I am extremely busy at this time. I cannot do your sign for any less bye now I have weeded out the cheap asses. And concentrate on serving my customers that give me big orders. I am very impatient and don't take any crap. I decided that I don't want to play the game of being the lowest bidder. When I stoop that low, I will find another line of work.

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surf or MoJo on mirc
Cheryl J Nordby
Signs by Cheryl
(206) 300-0153
Seattle WA.....!
signsbycheryl@hotmail.com
A day without sunshine is like, you know...night http://signsbycheryl.homestead.com/home.html
http://mojosignco.homestead.com/home.html

From sharp minds come sharp products

Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :

I know how alot of you guys feel but... those little jobs can really add up, and like pierre said, can lead to more profitable work. Now I know that you already realize that, but sometimes it's really hard to say No! or maybe it's jumping the gun...Just say.. "I can't do that for that price". "My kid needs to eat this weekend", or "I need to get that price in order to stay in business, because when you come back next week for your van to be lettered I want to do it, and if I do it for less then I won't be in business and you won't get the nice job that only I know how to do".
Honestly.. I just had a customer in here only a few minutes ago, he's a partner in a flower shop, i did no less than 10 sketch's for him, now they are only slight variations from one another, but none the less they took time. He acknowleged that and thanked me for them, but I wondered if he's coming back for more, so I told him, he has to make up his mind because I can't continue to do proofs, And it's then that I said you have $500.00 dollars worth of design time as it is. and all I'm making is the cost of the lettering.
Good Luck to you guys, as well as me!
Neil

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"Keep Positive"

SIGNS1st.
Neil Butler
Paradise, NF

Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :

I have to agree with Cheryl! Why waste time on cheepo and pain-in-the a** customers? They are "no profit" items... you are in the biz to make a profit! If they want to nickle and dime you on a small job, what makes you think that they won't be just as bad, or worse, on a big job?
You are a professional, why put up with their crap? Think an accountant, mechanic, plumber, etc would? Go into a Sears, WallMart, or other store and try those tactics...security will escort you to the door!

Just my humble, meek, ingratiating opinion!

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Si Allen #562
La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
ICQ # 330407
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"

Brushasaurus on Chat

Gladly supporting this BB !

Posted by Jim Upchurch (Member # 209) on :

I do small jobs, big jobs and anything in between. I don't do free design work though. I just bid on 9 signs, double sided, sandblasted and installed by hanging chains for $1,800. The developer thought I was on heroin. Then added that he wanted to see what he would get for 1,800. I'm sure the lowball would have been doing my design if I had offered a freebe. If you do 'em, they'll tell their friends and want more of the same.

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Artworks
Olympia WA

Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :

Bravo!
I forgot to add the writings of Melody Beatty (CoDependant No More, etc.) to my reply on the "what do you read" topic.
I also get so sock of nickel&dimers.
I actually had the balls to tell a lady who asked if I would critique a sketch that someone else did "Listen, if you're not going to buy a sign from me, don't even bother to stop by. My time is money".
I see now that her sign is up, done by someone else (a shop I TRIED to tell about Letterheads) and has already been taken down for some reason within a week of its installation. Glad I didn't deal with her!
I have spent HOURS on sketches for folks that ultimately choose Helvetica or Old English in an arch over a sketch thier kid did on their scumputer.
Invariably, the person who I gave "a deal" to comes back for MORE of the same.
I have learned the hard way to not be so darn NICE. Does the plumber knock off $50 for fixing your toilet when you say that you can get it fixed somewhere else cheaper? NO.
I'm not saying that you should be rude or arrogant. Treat people with respect, unless they're real weenies.
I don't mind little jobs. There have been times when I did say, a $25 license plate ane the guy comes back and gets 3 trucks lettered.
Sometimes there's a problem with raising prices. Like if it's been a year since you did a van, and you need to charge more the next time. Some people are reasonable and understand inflation. But others will go elsewhere. Then your work looks so much better!
So chin up, Donna. We are artists. We provide a much-needed service. You'll figure it out.
Take care- Love- JILL
p.s. never underestimate the power of drawing insulting cartoons of the jerkiest customers!

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Jill M. Welsh

Posted by Deb Fowler (Member # 1039) on :

Jim,

BTW, what are the measurements of those signs?

Donna, You are worth a lot, and many people do realize that, but won't let on to see how good of a deal they can get. It is a game sometimes to them, a quest, or they just don't have a clue for quality!
I find this to be a very interesting post!
No matter what level you are on, the pricing game is addressed constantly and is a subject that is crucial for our livelihood.
The only way I can justify my flexibility in pricing is to let the customers know that each job is unique and give a small example of the theory of design time, materials available, and such. This way feelings don't get hurt when two customers end up comparing notes and not have the info the price was based on to justify a price difference by two jobs done by me.
By all means, I try to keep my custom jobs increasing in price, and defintitely let many go,
but also keep some of the smaller, simpler ones coming in to keep me going in between the desired jobs. I give the good customers a little extra sometimes.
The sign industry has to keep their image up! We are still fighting the past of "starving artist" reputation too. Not to be ignored. There are some good past posts on this BB for moral support. I really thought they were very helpful in self-realization techniques. (And sometimes not even about signs! Pricing in general or the art of conveying our worth to the general public, an art in itself.)
Let people know you are there, and what your specialty is... stay in their faces! A technique some folks in letterville use already.
welcome back!

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Deb
Creative Signs

Posted by Rick Cooper (Member # 375) on :

Ah feel yur pain! The most gut wrenching part of this job is the dealing with customers, I find. I'm either too low, too high, too fast and make mistakes, or too slow.

I think my problem, after a lot of soul searching is: "I'm artist, not a clerk!" I'm way more right brain brain and have always had trouble with numbers and organization.
It seems I know what to do and say, (thanks in a great part to you guys) but when the customer walks away its, "Man, what did I just do?!" The hardest part of the sign business for me has always been the business end. Luckily my wife is better at that stuff.

I try to think in trends. I can't seem to change overnight so I have to move toward better customer techniques and more profitable work and stick to my procedures and policies one day at a time. Maybe someday I'll get it down.

It actually feels good now and then when the customer walks away without a sale and its because I haven't cheated myself.

Hang in there you are not alone!

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Rick Cooper
Sierra Sign & Award
Lake Tahoe, USA
www.engrave.pctrader.com
$$$Letterheads Website Supporter$$$

"The early bird gets the worm but the second
mouse gets the cheese."

Posted by Louis A Lazarus (Member # 763) on :

Donna,

It's just a game. Quote high and make them think they're getting a deal...you win.

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Louis A. Lazarus
Milt's Sign Service, Inc.
20 So. Linden Ave. #5B
650-588-0490
fontking1a@aol.com

Posted by Jim Upchurch (Member # 209) on :

Deb, 10" x 24" is the size. I just now looked it up and in a '98 pricing guide they show $105 per lineal foot.

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Artworks
Olympia WA

Posted by John Deaton (Member # 925) on :

I actually wish I could afford a person to deal with the customers and let me do the work. I aint anti-social by no means, and love to talk to people, but some customers just ask for it. Guy came in yesterday that I did a sketch for. Ordered two signs, one a 4x8, the other a 3x6. After I took the order, he told me the art dept. of his wifes school was doing a couple of signs, and he started to take my sketch to them and have them do it. I said well, we would have had a problem there. My designs are my property and you can't use them without my consent. IF you look on the sketch, it says just that. He said, well I felt bad about it anyway, that's why I'm getting you to do it.
Sureeeeee..........

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John Deaton III
Deaton Design
109 N. Cumberland Ave.,Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-573-9101

john@deatondesigns.com
www.deatondesigns.com

Posted by Deb Fowler (Member # 1039) on :

I've been thinking about a sign....

THIS IS A SIGN SHOP....
NOT A SCHOOL.....
AND DEFINITELY NOT OFFERING FREE LUNCHES!

There's no such thing as a free lunch!

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Deb
Creative Signs

Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :

Donna

Knowing you, I wouldn't worry about it.
You've been away from things a little while and you are probably just a little anxious.

I have found doing business is real wierd right now. I chalk it up to the uncertainty created by the outgoing government and the pending election.

Business folks here are real jittery right now.... make that REAL JITTERY. It is just a real wierd time to do business.

But I think things are going to turn around real fast.

And then you will be all set up in your new shop just raring to go.

I'll be by in a little while for a little work too. And I'll critique your business manners if you like

Don't sweat it.

-dan

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Dan Sawatzky
Sawatzky's Imagination Corporation
Cultus Lake , British Columbia
dan@imaginationcorporation.ca

www.imaginationcorporation.ca www.giggleridge.com

"Isn't it great to do what you love and love what you do!"

Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :

Interesting commentary from all.

I have a friend who does shoe repair. For years he suffered through the "You want HOW much?" routine from rude, unappreciative customers, and was becoming increasingly angry and bitter about his business. Then about two years ago he had just "had it" and changed tactics. First, he raised prices - about double - and then started picking his customers. He got a stack of business cards from another cobbler, about twenty miles away, (and the ONLY other cobbler in the area) and started telling the nickel-n-dimers "I'm not taking any new clients right now, go see this guy" and handing them the other cobbler's card.

For about eighteen months, business went down - but he was feeling so much better, having taken control of his business and life, that he actually didn't mind. About six months ago, many of his old customers - the same people he had sent away because they were cheap, rude, or disrespectful - started coming back, or as he says, crawling back, with a whole new attitude - polite and respectful, and more than willing to pay his prices. What they apparently discovered was that THEY needed HIM more than vice versa. I spoke to him yesterday; business is soaring (he says shoe repair always does better when the stock market slumps)but more importantly, he's in the driver's seat - anyone who is even remotely less than pleasant get's the "Sorry, I'm not taking any new customers right now". He even started a waiting list, and takes appointments - up to a month in advance - for shoe repairs!

An NPR show called "This American Life" did a feature last week about the power of rejection. The narrator talked about a man who approaches passengers on a subway platform, one at a time, looks into their eyes a moment, and arbitrarily announces either "Your OK, you can stay", or "You're outta here!" then goes to the next person and repeats the process. Though clearly deranged, he's harmless - he never threatens or touches anyone - but his decisions, though meaningless and arbitrary, have an effect on the people he approaches - no one likes being rejected, for any reason, even when the acceptance or rejection is utterly meaningless.

Donna, it sounds to me like your priorities have changed (you have a child now) and therefore, so has your attitude. You needed to take control of your business, and like any major change, their are adjustments and growing pains. Hang in there.

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"A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)

Cam
Finest Kind Signs
256 S. Broad St.
Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379
"Award winning Signs since 1988"

Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :

Cam you are right about the power of rejection. I told 2 customers that I no longer could do their sign work for them. One guy I even deleted his files. Both of these customers were cheap, bossy, and needy. Well, guess what? They are both back. I sent them to fastsigns....because they always wanted their signs dirt cheap. Hmmmmm. I raised my prices on them..but they still want me to do their work. I made a couple small signs for one. The other I told to go away.

From sharp minds come sharp products

Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :

Cam, you hit the nail on the head. I no longer want to do work for less than what I feel it's worth. If I do, I feel ripped off and I either feel resentful or don't put my best foot forward. I'd rather be spending time with my little guy than do free work. That's the whole catch for me at the moment. I wish I could be a fulltime mom and I can't so now I'm getting fussy.

I think it's paying off. Here's one example. I had a customer that rejected a logo quote about 6 months ago. In the meantime, he had something done up at a print shop for $250. He hated it. He called me 2 days ago and approved my MUCH MUCH higher fee and a deposit will be here this afternoon before I start to work on it.

Moral of the story, don't give up on yourself. Also, cheer up. I gotta cheer up.

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Graphic Impact
Abbotsford, BC, Canada
gisigns@sprint.ca

Posted by The Moon (Member # 452) on :

Sometimes I am so in'sync with people here on the BB it scares me...

Donna I just learned this lesson too, with a family member/customer.

They have always been the ones in the family to got the "best deal" or the "lowest price" on anything they wanted to buy... from cars to wedding supplies. Well, when it came time to bill them for their stuff I got nervous and thought if I didn't give them the lowest possible price they'd go somewhere else and things would be very uncomfortable at the next family party... WRONG.

Long story short- After speaking with her breifly between incoming calls (at her shop) she told me they picked me because they liked my work and thought I was worth whatever I charged them. They didn't pick me because I gave them the "family discount".

Now on the other hand... I have "fired" some of my customers because they were a pian in the arse and after reading the responses to you post... now I know why I *really* fired them.

Gald you posted this topic!

The awakened with a two by four side of the Moon

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The Moon
aka: Stefenie Harris
Moonlight Designs
Pollock Pines, CA
learnin' somethin' new every day!

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