The Letterville BullBoard: Am I out to lunch or getting lowballed?

This is topic Am I out to lunch or getting lowballed? in forum Old Archives at The Letterville BullBoard.

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Posted by Brian Diver (Member # 1552) on :

I know it's ammunition for a good slam for those of you who life's passion is to slam someone else, but I recently gave a bid on this truck. The owners said that they had a bid of $375 for both sides with the name, light bulb, and phone # only. Is that realistic?

OK, I'm a newbie and am using the 2000 computer graphics price guide. I used the Step van on page 37 (it's a 14' delivery truck). It has $549 for both sides (name, city, phone) additional words at 10.50 ea. I've been called out there twice and have had to wait around for the owner both times, they wanted to see a picture so I used my car & truck collection and printed off a plot for approval that they really liked. (I would have used the photo but the first time I was there it was to dark to take a picture so I got it the 2nd time around when on approval.) If I get the job I'll have to go out again - if I was a plumber... (I know don't get you started)

Comments, suggestions, and a price you'd bid would be welcome, and thanks for your help.
[img]http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=933193&a=6821112[img]

Sorry if the picture doesn't show up and if there are two, well I'm learning.

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Brian Diver
PDQ Signs
Everett, Wa

(425) 252-6110
briandiver@excite

Posted by Brian Diver (Member # 1552) on :

Lets try that link again?
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=933193&a=6821112

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Brian Diver
PDQ Signs
Everett, Wa

(425) 252-6110
briandiver@excite

Posted by Adrienne Pereira (Member # 1046) on :

testing......

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Adrienne Morgan
Splash Signs
www.splashsigns.com
"Rainkatt'

Benicia, CA
707-746-7847 (shop)
707-550-4553 (voicemail)
adrienne@splashsigns.com

Posted by Adrienne Pereira (Member # 1046) on :

Apparently it won't work with that web site Brian...I uploaded it to mine.

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Adrienne Morgan
Splash Signs
www.splashsigns.com
"Rainkatt'

Benicia, CA
707-746-7847 (shop)
707-550-4553 (voicemail)
adrienne@splashsigns.com

[This message has been edited by AdrienneMorgan (edited January 21, 2001).]

Posted by Brian Snyder (Member # 41) on :

I suppose $375 could be realistic depending on what your market is like and what your business overhead is. As it looks in your photo I think I would ask for at least $500 but I can't tell if there are rivits or not.

Why can't this potential customer come to you? If he can't, then at this point why not charge him to go out to him? Whenever I get a call from a business that I know charges a fee for showing up I always tell them I charge the same fee as theirs to go out to meet them. Doctors get charged an amount equal to their initial office visit fee.

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Brian Snyder
Sign Solutions
www.njsign.com
Woodbridge, New Jersey

Posted by Robert Davis (Member # 1641) on :

Brian, From what I remember these trucks come with fiberglass sides. I dont think they have rivits, but I do think they have a dimpled texture. It may take a little heat and time to get the Vinyl to bite good. The job looks like it will take at least a 10 yard roll to do. Then theres the travel time. I'm with Brian S on this one I'd say $500.00. But If you do the job for less. I would make them come to you. Good Luck!!

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Robert Davis
Sticky Sam's Signs
(828)488-1715
mttropic@dnet.net
The Great Smoky Mountains
Bryson City, N.C.

Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :

Brian,

I wouldn't have even thought twice about it for 375.00. Kick this customer to the curb and look for another one.

$550.00 is more realistic, If you've gone there twice and the owner is disrespectful enough to make you wait both times than he is what I call an a**hole.

A good way to weed out these leeches is to get a sketch fee up front. unless you want to design all day for free.

This guy obviously doesn't spend much money on anything, he buys Ryder renta wrecks and doesn't even repaint them.

There are vendors for every kind of customer, you have to decide what kind of vendor you want to be.

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Bob Rochon
Creative Signworks
Millbury, MA
bob@creativesignworks.com

"Some people's kids"

Posted by Leo Offerson (Member # 423) on :

I agree with the rest, get your price or leave it alone. I get about $800.00 here in Canada for the same thing. Remember the customer will expect full warranty even if the price is the lowest. I also charge $55.00 an hour to go and measure the van up, and if the job is mine I have that built into the price, and if not then the customer pays me that amount. The same is true of doing sketches and drawings and all those good things we are expected to do for "Free" I don't do them anymore. If the customer wants a nice full color drawing of what the van will look like then that is an extra. So far my customers have all paid and do not expect things for free. Our costs are getting far too hight for freebies. Gas is up to 74.9 per litre in Canada so driving back and forth to a customer for free to satisfy his whims because he can not make up his mind is no longer a viable option.
My thoughts about pricing have always been charge the most and give the best. Lowballers will eventually either smarten up or go the way of a big wind and blow away.

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Leo Offerson
The Sign Shop
Dawson Creek, BC
leosign@pris.bc.ca

Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :

Hi Brian,

$550 is more in line with my thinking also.

But..... If you are struggling to find jobs, it can be done that cheap. If you made $275 off the job, that IS better than doing nothing all day. That is why someone else gave him a lower price. They are hungry!
And if they keep doing more work for this guy, they cut you out of future business with him and if he tells all his friends what a deal he made, then all his buddies go to the other shop, thus, cutting you out of more future work.

If you are busy and don't need the job, then don't worry about it. But you will have to take a loss on some jobs just to keep your business growing and future work to keep coming in the door.

Just don't set your regular prices by this one job. In other words, just because the job went for $375, don't assume that is all the next customer with a box truck will pay.

Sometimes the customer will go with the higher price if you have a better layout presentation or if you have a relationship with the guy that just sort of "clicks"

I have lost jobs being the "lowballer" just because the guy didn't like me...we didn't "click", I guess. My layout was better, I felt I was bending over backwards, but it still didn't sell the job. Its just business as usual.

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Draper The Signmaker
Bloomington Illinois USA
Stop in and visit a while!
309-828-7110
signman@davesworld.net
Raptorman or Draper_Dave on mIRC chat

[This message has been edited by Dave Draper (edited January 21, 2001).]

Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :

You should try and sell up to a better design and more money, then a one to one comparison is not possible. I don't believe you should ever take a loss on a job to get future business. All you get if they become a future customer is one who expects the same low price on all their work and maybe referrals for their buddys because your cheap.
The local stores don't price their products on the basis of how busy or slow they are on a certain day. That's not to say they don't discount a certain item to get people in the store. We don't have that luxury. What other trades people do that?

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Wright Signs
Wyandotte, Michigan
Since 1978
http://www.wrightsigns.bigstep.com

Posted by Jerry Mathel (Member # 526) on :

Hi Brian,

$500 to $600 is a realistic price for a job like this, providing there isn't a lot of surfacd prep to be done. I guess only you can make the decision if you want to cut your price, and of course it depends on how bad you need the job. You could do that job for $375, but you wouldn't be making much money, but then sometimes a half a slice is better than none at all. If I had other work in the shop, I'd pass on it in a minute. Also keep in mind that once you give someone a lowball price, it's hard to ever get your price back up where it should be.

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Jerry Mathel
Jerry Mathel Signs
Grants Pass, Oregon
signs@grantspass.com

[This message has been edited by jmathel (edited January 21, 2001).]

Posted by Sarah Clark (Member # 413) on :

I would think all these folks with similar estimate are correct unless you live in a low income area where things are less. I would suggest if you are new and learning, that if you want the job and experience go for the price you can get. You will learn a lot about how long it takes and all.

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Posted by John Deaton (Member # 925) on :

I just recently priced a job just like this for 500 and got it. That's the lowest I would do a job like this for. Just waiting on a warmer day now......

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John Deaton III
Deaton Signs&Grafix
109 N. Cumberland Ave.,Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-573-9101

johnd31@hotmail.com
http://www.angelfire.com/ky2/dsigns

[This message has been edited by John Deaton III (edited January 21, 2001).]

Posted by Mike Languein (Member # 319) on :

Man, I like Brian Snyder's plan of charging them the same as they do - but why charge doctors according to their office visit fee? Admittedly, it is an exhorbitant amount (imagine charging your potential sign customers $40 to $75 just because they walked in your door!)
If you could get a number out of them for a House Call Fee, now THAT's what doctors ought to be nailed for, if you're going to them.
Then we could go buy a new Rolls Royce every year, too...hahaha
yeah, plumbers. Them too! And bring a "helper" with you so you can charge double.

I always tell my truck customers "If it has wheels on it bring it on by, there's no charge for that."

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"If it isn't fun, why do it?"
Signmike@aol.com
Mike Languein
Doctor of Letters
BS, MS, PhD
___________________

You know what BS is, MS is More of the Same, and it's Piled Higher and Deeper here

Posted by Brian Diver (Member # 1552) on :

Boy, talk about a wealth of information :-) I really appreciate ALL of your responses. As I'm starting out I'm not that busy but I don't want be the low price king either. I feel we are like any other trade and need to charge accordingly. We have families to feed, mortgage and car payments just like the rest of society so I'm going to apply these suggestions towards my next bids.

My bid was 635 which included the drawing, 3+ hrs I was at their shop, and travel time. I think that is fair. Next time I'll get the drawing fee up front and mention the doctor visit fee.

Thanks again for all your help :-)

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Brian Diver
PDQ Signs
Everett, Wa

(425) 252-6110
briandiver@excite

Posted by Bill Biggs (Member # 18) on :

Brian,
I would charge 250 a side for that job in my area, which is a highly competitive area. But I would have told them to drive the truck by my shop, where I would have photographed it and made them a design. Sometimes while they wait if they know what they want. It is seldom they ever get away from you if you get them to come to you and they can see you are prepared to do the job quickly and effectively. I seldom lose a customer to price if I get them into my door, cause I make them want what I have for them.
Bill

above is a test of your pic if it don't show up your site has them blocked.
OK it showed up so this is the deal, you have to go to your site, right click on the image and save image location, then paste into your bb message and add [img] to the front of it and [/img] to the back of it notice the / in the second one it is the closer
Bill

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Bill & Barbara Biggs
Art's Sign Service, Inc.
Clute, Texas, USA
Home of The Great Texas Mosquito Festival
Proud Third year Supporter of the Letterheads Website
MailTo:twobeesusa@netscape.net

[This message has been edited by Bill Biggs (edited January 21, 2001).]

Posted by Chuck Churchill (Member # 68) on :

You have set a good price for this job. However it is unlikely you are going to get it. To some of these contractors a $250 difference is hard to justify. Especially if they won't take the time to get to know you and what else you can do for them.

Here is a way to recoup your investment in time photographing, laying out and quoting the job. I estimate it would of take you 5 manhours to do the job. Set aside a day next week where you san spend five hours marketing. Go call on business in a part of the city that you have never called on before. Take a brochure or better yet some pictures of past projects. Also take a pen, clipboard and a measuring tape. Talk to anyone who will listen about your signmaking abilites and other business like them that you have helped. In 5 hours you should be able to talk to 16 to 20 people for 5 to 10 minutes about your skills and their needs. Ask them if they know of anyone else that could use vehicle lettering, signs, banners, etc. You will likely have a new client by the end of the day. Make sure you leave a business card with them. In amny cases it takes them a few days to make up their minds or get approval from "the boss" to go ahead with the project.

Basically you are investing the time you would of spent completing the project in marketing to others. The more people you talk to about your skills the more work you are gong to get.

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Chuck Churchill,
It's A Good Sign Inc.
3245 Harvester Rd, U-12
Burlington, Ont.
Phone: 905-681-8775
Fax: 905-681-8945

Posted by Bruce Evans (Member # 44) on :

Just guessing by the looks of the Van. I'd anticipate blowing about 70 feet of 2mil vinyl and a couple hours to weed/tape/install it.

70 x $1.25 =$87.50
mark that up 3 times to $275.00
$65.00 per hour x 2 hours = $130.00

In Southern California someone would under bid me if I bid it at $400.00

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Bruce Evans

Posted by Bill Biggs (Member # 18) on :

Competitive bidding,
is not where it is at! You have to sell
yourself as the Man!The one who can do the job and do it right.
I spent 20 years in the grocerybusiness, and I guarantee you, pricing is not as important as marketing.Like Chuck said, You need to sell yourself, not the price of the job.
Join civic clubs, chamber, etc Anyway to get yourself into the public eye, like a politician, LOL, only don't get into politics
not good for a sign man LOL.

Bill

Posted by Felix Marcano (Member # 1833) on :

I did a job just like this one for $500.00 More color, rivets & dimples but good customer. pays cash. no order forms. right around the corner. etc. etc. etc!

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Marcano-Welch Signs Luquillo, Puerto Rico
787-889-6608

Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :

welcome to cutthroat sign business.....you can get used to it....like one of the other guys said...hungry makes prices lower... as does "stupid" or just buying a vinyl cutter & computer...and now "they is a sign maker" in need of "practice".
iam doing a 12' box van this week(with rivits),both sides, rear door and above the cab on the box for $800.00. iam sure ther is someone out there that would do it for less....but it aint me. i could do your job for $375.00..use all calendared vinyl....if you see this guy explain the diff between the calendared vinyl and hi-performance vinyl...if he dont care use the calendared and do it for the $375.00. take a look at my web page www.asignmint.atfreeweb.com and there is a white ford van pic...i got $550 for it......

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joe pribish-A SIGN MINT
2811 longleaf Dr.
pensacola, fl 32526
850-944-5060
BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND

Posted by Louis A Lazarus (Member # 763) on :

Brian,

You're confusing "a perfect world" with "the real world". Everything has a value. Your time has a value. A sign job has a value. Everything!!! Things are worth what people will pay for them. You have to ask yourself..."how bad do I want this job". That's the name of the game. If you consistently bid against somebody who outbids you, you're too expensive. Period, end of story. That doesn't mean your work isn't good. It also doesn't mean your work isn't worth the price. It just means that in your particular situation, you're too high. You can remedy this by either lowering your prices or convincing your customers that although your prices are higher...your work is worth it for xxx reasons. Just put yourself in your customers boots. You be a customer and go shopping for something that is custom made. You get three prices, all different. You know nothing about how that custom made product is created. It's your money you are spending. Which one do you choose? This is human nature and there is nothing wrong with wanting the best product at the lowest price. But, when you can't tell which one is best...most people...including you and me...will go with the lowest price. That's the real world and that's the world in which we live. The nice thing to remember is that if your competition is "giving away" his work, he most likely won't be around for too long. When all is said and done...you have to make a profit...or you will cease to exist.

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Louis A. Lazarus
Milt's Sign Service, Inc.
20 So. Linden Ave. #5B
650-588-0490
fontking1a@aol.com

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