The Letterville BullBoard: Mini workshop on layout... sample pics included.

This is topic Mini workshop on layout... sample pics included. in forum Old Archives at The Letterville BullBoard.

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Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :

Hi guys,

This has driven me crazy for awhile now, and I'd love to hear your advice.

#1 is set up with the computer automatic alignment having done all the work.

#2 is set up so the main copy is more centered, and the y in way is shortened so it would fit.

#3 is a slightly larger sign panel, so all the text could stay in tact, and the text is more central to the panel.

I know my personal 'preference', but I'd like to hear your feedback on 'which is right' and why.

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Graphic Impact
located in BC Canada
gisigns@sprint.ca

Posted by Robert Thomas (Member # 1356) on :

Number Three, because there is more air (space) around the letters. Is that like a steet sign? I'd like to see Around About Way like this.

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Robert Thomas Creative Signs In Beautiful Naples, Fl.

Posted by Rich Stebbing (Member # 368) on :

I prefer the spacing in #2 as the other two seem to have the letter "a" in about a little too far away from rest of word. But I like the "letter weight" in the others, and feel that #3 has better margins, but copy is still to "bottom heavy", needs more room at bottom. That's what I think.

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Rich Stebbing #945
RichSigns
Rohnert Park CA

Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :

Actually number 1 would be correct if there were a bit more breathing room overall. The other two don't appear to be "optically" correct. Combine the centering of #1 and the sign size of #3. I never really consider measurements to be the rule. Optic correctness is more important. My .02

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St.Marie Graphics
& Makin' Tracks Sound Studio
Kalispell, Montana
stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com
We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)

Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :

I would agree with Pierre.

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Dave Grundy shop#340
AKA "applicator" on mIRC
"stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!"
in Granton, Ontario, Canada
1-519-225-2634
dave.grundy@quadro.net
www.quadro.net/~shirley
"A PROUD $ supporter of the website"

Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :

HI Donna. I feel that #3 would be the best solution...if the line of lettering was moved up just a bit. The surrounding margin balances against the letters more effectively in this version. Personally, I don't like to modify or alter individual characters in a line of copy, but prefer to maintain the integrity of the font, as designed.
When centering a line of copy like this, you also have to consider the space required for the ascenders and desenders. If the whole line were set in upper case, that consideration doesn't usually become a factor.

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Ken Henry
Henry & Henry Signs
London, Ontario Canada
(519) 439-1881
e-mail kjmlhenry@home.

Some days you get to be the dog....other days, you get to be the fire hydrant.

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :

#1 is the optically correct one. #'s 2 and 3 are bottom heavy. However, my answer would be #4 - None of the Above.

I would prefer to use #3's size panel, but to center the lettering as in #1. All of the weight is in the lowercase lettering. That is what should be considered for centering. This would be more pleasing to the eye.

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Compost Happens!

:) Design is Everything! :)
Glenn Taylor
in beautiful North Carolina

http://members.tripod.com/taylor_graphics
walldog@geeksnet.com

Posted by Jack Davis (Member # 1408) on :

I agree with Pierre for optical correctness, but disagree with his choice. Number one looks like a bunch of balloons hanging around on the ceiling, Number 2 a large rat in a small box, and Number three an easy chair sitting in the living room. My choice, number three...Bronzeo....
"Optical correctness above all rules"

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Jack Davis
1410 Main St
Joplin, MO 64801
www.imagemakerart.com
bronzeo@prodigy.net
http://www.imagemakerart.com

Posted by Kelli (Member # 248) on :

I vote # 1 with a large margin all the way around.

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Kelli Cajigas aka Janda
Dolphin deSigns & Banners
“A satisfied customer will tell two friends, a dissatisfied customer will tell ten.”

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :

Here is my #4 as I would do it...
http://members.tripod.com/taylor_graphics/around4.jpg

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Compost Happens!

:) Design is Everything! :)
Glenn Taylor
in beautiful North Carolina

http://members.tripod.com/taylor_graphics
walldog@geeksnet.com

Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :

All three of those layouts leave me mildly frustrated ... I have "tweaking" issues with each of them. All of them are just on the edge of being "right", but none of them truly succeed for my eyes. #3 being the closest to "right on", with just a nudge upward.

First off, I am most attracted to the kerning (spacing between the letters) in #2, but would need to ditch it completely for it's position in the panel.

#1 leaves me wanting some air, but I believe I'd pick it over #3 if I must choose from this batch. If we are talking correctness visually in placement .... I guess this one's got to win for me, reluctantly.

I tend to favour more air on bottom than on top, especially when dealing with upper/lower case letters.

I wouldn't really be a happy camper letting any of these go without a slight nudge in adjustment.

Close, but no cigar.

Nettie

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"When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"

Janette Balogh
Sign Studio
in Sunny Florida
jbalogh@earthlink.net
Current Pet Profile - Please send us yours!
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Posted by Louis A Lazarus (Member # 763) on :

You guys are kidding...right? If there is a correct answer to this...please prove it. It's like asking which wallpaper is right. Please find me a customer who would reject any of these...
None is right...but all are acceptable and saleable and would pass the 50/50 test.

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Louis A. Lazarus
Milt's Sign Service, Inc.
20 So. Linden Ave. #5B
650-588-0490
fontking1a@aol.com

Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :

hahahaha... Fontking, Nope .... we're not kidding!

But then again ... this IS a "mini workshop on layout" as stated in the title.

As a job .... yup, either being quite passable for a paycheck.
I'd still take the mere seconds to tweak abit tho. Must be a curse.

Nettie

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"When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"

Janette Balogh
Sign Studio
in Sunny Florida
jbalogh@earthlink.net
Current Pet Profile - Please send us yours!
http://www.markfair.com/nettie

Start packing and move in! It's just too easy to be a Resident!
Location, Location, Location! It's all right here!
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Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :

Hey Lou. Excellence STARTS with looking after the LITTLE THINGS. Sure all of these are "saleable", and you might not find a customer who would object to any.

However, if you are determined to do work that is head and shoulders above that of your competition, you've got to appreciate, and look after those small, subtle differences. Failure to do so, will relagate the end product that you put out as being merely "average or mediocre".

That being said, the budget would dictate how much time you can afford to devote to this sort of "tweaking".

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Ken Henry
Henry & Henry Signs
London, Ontario Canada
(519) 439-1881
e-mail kjmlhenry@home.

Some days you get to be the dog....other days, you get to be the fire hydrant.

Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :

Thanks guys for your input. I didn't madly kern the thing, decide what this panel is nor play with the thickness of the lettering. (#2 was converted to curves to tweek the y, therefore it appears different in jpg format) My main focus is to find the right placement inside the panel for this line of text. I chose the wording not to make sence, but to add some dilemma.

Thank-you Glenn for your sample of improvement. Nettie and others, I'd LOVE to see your versions. What the heck, include all your kerning issues and whatever else you can see need improvement. We can only learn from them.

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Graphic Impact
located in BC Canada
gisigns@sprint.ca

[This message has been edited by Donna in BC (edited June 17, 2000).]

Posted by Jack Davis (Member # 1408) on :

Donna, Just curious. Which did you think looked best?

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Jack Davis
1410 Main St
Joplin, MO 64801
www.imagemakerart.com
bronzeo@prodigy.net
http://www.imagemakerart.com

Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :

Hi Donna,

I'm just making a quick stop on here, between outings away from home today.

Don't really want to take the time to create my version.

My choice would be to take the lettering from #2, and place it in #3's box, only a "nudge" or two higher in position than the copy there now.

This is just the way I see it.
I think we all seem to have our preferences that come into play in our layouts too.

Donna ... this was cool little exercise.
Thanks!

Nettie

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"When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"

Janette Balogh
Sign Studio
in Sunny Florida
jbalogh@earthlink.net
Current Pet Profile - Please send us yours!
http://www.markfair.com/nettie

Start packing and move in! It's just too easy to be a Resident!
Location, Location, Location! It's all right here!
http://www.letterhead.com/supporters

Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :

Hi guys,

I just came across this candy bar wrapper, and the same scenario exsists. Did the designer set up the word Glosette like you would?

Hi Jack,

I drew up #3 because of more white space for the panel overall which I prefer, but I feel the main text should be tweeked up just a tad. But then I have trouble with the A being too high to the sign panel.

I find it interesting how there appears to be so many different preferences on this one. Now I can see why I've been stumped for so long!

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Graphic Impact
located in BC Canada
gisigns@sprint.ca

Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :

In terms of "as is" I would choose #2 for overall ballance ! Roger

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Roger Bailey
Rapid Tac Incorporated
Merlin, OR

Posted by VICTORGEORGIOU (Member # 474) on :

Mike Stevens book Mastering Layout says that the layout looks best when the "center of gravity" of the line is slightly above the centerline of the sign. I agree with that.

The reason negative space is important is that we do not read the words, we read the shapes of words. In this context I think that layout three would read the best in a flash card test. Text is too tight on the other two.

So I'm with Glenn Taylor, almost. The 3 layout but scrootch the text up a hair.

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Victor Georgiou
Bob Loves Signs Inc
Danville, CA
email blssigns@verio.com

Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :

Victor,

I'm looking to see where Glenn said he picked #3 with the text a scrootch higher.

hmmmm.... but I can see where I said that!
Oh yeah, come to think of it ... so did Pierre, Ken and Rich .... heck Bronzeo too!
In a sense, Kelli too.

Wow ... different words used to say the same thing! Looks like we're all in agreement here.

Nettie

------------------
"When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"

Janette Balogh
Sign Studio
in Sunny Florida
jbalogh@earthlink.net
Current Pet Profile - Please send us yours!
http://www.markfair.com/nettie

Start packing and move in! It's just too easy to be a Resident!
Location, Location, Location! It's all right here!
http://www.letterhead.com/supporters

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :

Amost??!!.....But I'm always right. I can't help it if Mike Stevens agrees with me.

By the way.....I picked #4.

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Compost Happens!

:) Design is Everything! :)
Glenn Taylor
in beautiful North Carolina

http://members.tripod.com/taylor_graphics
walldog@geeksnet.com

Posted by Dave Utter (Member # 634) on :

I just want some of what Bronzeo is smokin!!!

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Dave Utter
D-utterguy on chat
Sign Designs
Beardstown, Il.
utter@fgi.net

Posted by Elaine Beauchemin (Member # 136) on :

How about #5?

it's #3 lettering in a slightly smaller pannel.

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Élaine Beauchemin
scrip
Lettrage Scripsit inc.
St-Hubert, Quebec, Canada
www.scripsit.qc.ca
elaine@scripsit.qc.ca

Posted by Samazon (Member # 408) on :

...and I'm wondering how many chocolate bars Donna bought to use for her "research."

Sam

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“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
- Anais Nin
www.samazon.com
sam@samazon.com

Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :

Elaine,

Slightly smaller panel scrooched down abit from the top, which gives us the nudge a hair up on the copy we have all been craving on #3.

AAAHHH ... Elaine's #5 works for me.

Nettie

------------------
"When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"

Janette Balogh
Sign Studio
in Sunny Florida
jbalogh@earthlink.net
Current Pet Profile - Please send us yours!
http://www.markfair.com/nettie

Start packing and move in! It's just too easy to be a Resident!
Location, Location, Location! It's all right here!
http://www.letterhead.com/supporters

Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :

Thanks Elaine, for taking the time! Now that one I can live with! Anyone feel it still looks wrong and why?

No one's addressed the Glosette box yet. To me, the G looks too tight at the top of the box. Dang good thing I buy the product for the inside.

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Graphic Impact
located in BC Canada
gisigns@sprint.ca

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :

Donna,

Layouts and font usage for packaging are generally more liberal and forgiving. The rules are not as restrictive as they would be for signage. Because the viewing distance is much closer and because color distinctiveness is more desirable, headline text can be used effectively where it would not be for signage read at a distance. A box of cereal would be more appropriate for color/design ideas than would be a candybar wrapper.

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Compost Happens!

Design is Everything!
Glenn Taylor
in beautiful North Carolina

http://members.tripod.com/taylor_graphics
walldog@geeksnet.com

[This message has been edited by Glenn Taylor (edited June 18, 2000).]

Posted by Rich Stebbing (Member # 368) on :

I like it! It has some punch for a wrapper, and I'm sure it supposed to. When all these items are on the shelf they are competing with each other and have to get downright aggressive. I would like to see the word "raisins" a little bolder, perhaps white and in a red panel. The brandname has an old-fashioned established feel with that typestle, something that maybe "grandpa ate". OK ,now you have to send me one so I can see it if it lives up to it's appeal.

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Rich Stebbing #945
RichSigns
Rohnert Park CA

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