Signs are a very different medium than what most Graphic Designers are used to dealing with, or are trained for, for that matter.
Firstly, most Graphic designers are very "print oriented" and quite often, their designs reflect that bias. Signs are strongly environtmentally related, since they are part of the environmental landscape. They may exist as a stand alone structure, with only a natural background, or they also exist in highly competitive urban settings with lots of visual competition.
Very often, I've received designs from Graphic Designers who haven't made this connection, and may not ever have made a site visual inspection, before coming up with conceptual work. They tend to relate what they're designing to the page workspace right in front of them, without due consideration for where that finished design will ultimately reside. We've all had the experience of someone specifying brown letters to go against a earthy toned brick wall, or a sign with a forest green background set in front of a woodlot of trees.
Another difference is identifying just what the sign will be attempting to achieve. Signs can and do a whole variety of functions such as: Inform, Direct, Warn, Identify, Advertise, Advise, etc. However, their primary function is to Communicate. They tend to accomplish more when they aren't trying to accomplish all or more than 2 of those functions.
Signs also have a far shorter time to communicate their message than print media. The essence of a posted sign message must be absorbed within seconds, as opposed to minutes. That quality alone dictates that less is indeed more where a sign is concerned, but I haven't really encountered that many who wear the title of Graphic Designer, who seem to appreciate that most essential quality.
As Sign Designers, we do see things differently, and consequently, design differently. We understand the values of contrast, negative space, line value, rhythm, tonal value, plus the practical considerations of substrate selection and construction. There are also other considerations we make that probably never enter into the Graphic Designer's thought process. Paint longevity, windloads, structural integrity, mounting security, and maintenance issues, are but a few that come to mind.
Somehow, we've all become second bananna to those who wear the tag of Graphic Designer. However, I do know that as an industry, we are very often the ones who translate the concepts into real signs and structures, and bring practical solutions to make those concepts actually work to a limited fashion. Somehow, the sign-consuming public isn't seeing our value as Sign Designers, and perhaps it's because that we've failed to communicate our strengths as effectively as we should have.
I invite your thoughts/comments.
Posted by John Arnott (Member # 215) on :
Ken, This is soooooo true! I just had a customer in that has been working with a "Graphic Designer". After I set everything right for his project, he said to me......WOW, I should have come to you sooner! You do have to explain a lot to customers so they trust you know what your doing. When someone comes into my shop to ask about a sign or whatever, I often say "Excuse me...... just give me one minute" then I go do something real quick so they can stand there and LOOK AROUND. They ALWAYS start looking around and see the fancy carved, guilded, 3-D samples. Then they have a much better respect for me and my abilities to produce something they can be proud of. Now I can open the portfolio. This often leads to a complete logo design and much better sign than they thought was possible. John www.signgraphics1.com Posted by Michael Gene Adkins (Member # 882) on :
you said it
most people want me to blow up their business cards into 4 x 8s ... I have to talk them down off the ledge ....
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Good topic Ken...
quote:most Graphic designers are very "print oriented"
Like everyone else I got all sorts of requests to make a 4x8 out of a low rez bitmap image. A step above was a business card because at least I could scan it at a higher resolution. Another step above was a hi rez bitmap image.
When I saw that I was getting an actual vector file my heart started beating faster!!!
Then when I opened the file it was geared to a print advertisement with all sorts of overlays, pen thicknesses used instead of contours and generally sloppy vector work because nobody would notice imperfections in a small print advertisement.
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
I always thought it should read ' graphics '
but hey, a guy falls off a building, hits the ground blood everywhere, now that's graphic
[ February 05, 2010, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: Joey Madden ]
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
Gosh, I thought sign designers were graphic designers..
We suffer from the same thing... most sign"s" designers know nothing about print, except for internet gang printing shiny 4 color, which there is not much to know. I have also seen quite a few business cards and logos look like signs.
We also suffer from adding sub-specialties to a specialty that is part of graphic design. Wrap designers, vynul, craft, wayfinding, code, ADA, themed, carved, electrical, hand lettering... the list goes on and on. There is a lot to know about graphic design, there is a lot to know about sign design, more people miss the mark than hit it on both sides.
I know some really good graphic designers and would not hesitate for one second to ask them for their opinion. Like wise I get work from them on making their work sign-worthy...
It's not graphic designers we should be talking about, it architects! They all smell like burned coffee and dijon mustard!
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
Okay, so how do we, as the great sign designers that we are, get the word out to the masses. How do we re-train people that it is us who are the better sign designers. Do people realize that great looking signs are not just built by us, but are also completely designed by us. I think it's time for a Nationwide Campaign! But how? Do we have posters or billboards up showing the differece of what Graphic Designers do and what we do? Commercial spots? Mailers, flyers? Bumper stickers that read "Trust Your Local Letterhead" Believe me, I have been tempted to take a picture of someone's overall signage, re-design it and then email it to them, showing what their signs should have looked like. Alright, I'm on fire!
Posted by Preston McCall (Member # 351) on :
The problem with a designer is that they usually have a big ego and have charged the client bukoo money for the design.I look at it and simply tell the client that the disign is fabulous, but that we will need to make some changes to make it more readable. I take the ideas and simplify it by showing several versions of the ideas. Almost always, the client agrees. I just accept that 'designers' are not sign makers. These signs are much easier to do than the ones that some client draws up on his own. It just takes some empathy and some clear explanation, without coming off as a knowitall.
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
Wow, lotta hostility here!
Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
Dan A: I don't think it is hostillity, so much as frustration. You posted this response on another thread : Quote: There's bad apples in every profession, and not every BFA is equal. Lot depends on where you went to school, as some design schools are clearly better than others. (After reviewing the last 200 applicants for our designer position I have open, I can certainly attest to that!)
But like what was said above, the difference between vector and bitmap should be 'Working with Images 101' stuff.
Have you ever wondered where those other 199 applicants go to, after they've unsucessfully applied to your company ? They inevitably get jobs elsewhere, and like you mentioned, there are more than a few who lack some very basic knowledge as to working with images, or designing in the proper scale to fit the format.
These are the people that us sign makers end up having to deal with, and also with the inadequacies that they provide....in spite of having that diploma. As Rick C mentioned there are really GOOD Graphic Designers out there who do some fine work, and interact well with the sign making community. It's those other 199 that tend to give the profession a bad image.
I appologize if my post tended to paint everyone with the same brush, and I do acknowledge that there are those who do excell. My problem seems to be that I, and other signmakers get exposed to those other 199 that you chose not to hire.
Everyone has to make a living, and so those rejected applicants ( who may run the whole gauntlet of qualified to underqualified ) find their place in the Graphic Designer realm. Some days I feel it's like having a Doctor who graduated last in his class, as my only choice for some upcoming treatment.
[ February 06, 2010, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Ken Henry ]
Posted by Joel Cuminale (Member # 3148) on :
"graphic design" can be very dynamic and as such can make incredible use of a few small elements in a vast space (albeit bound by "page size"). We have all seen many such "dynamic" designs fail miserably when translated into a sign. I'm not really sure it is the fault of the designer, rather than the constraints that are placed on the sign industry in terms of size and scale. Just as there are municipalities that will allow only a certain percentage of a sign face to be occupied with logos/letters, and limit the overall size of a sign due to codes and zoning rather than "apropriateness". A "dynamic" design can work well as a sign if and when the scale of such a design will permit (no pun intended). What can we do about it? That is our challenge as designers: to work within and breakout beyond the constraints that are put before us; because that is our job. It's all about the balance.
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
I've played on both sides of the coin. And I've seen many signmakers try and be graphic designers to no avail. They make print too big.
It really does go both ways. Signmakers trying to tap into the graphic design world with little to no knowledge? Absolutely, and you can tell.
How to overcome the issue? A signmaker has to want the additional info/training/knowledge, just as a graphic designer would for signage.
Which, generally doesn't happen. Because they both know it all already.
Oh. And Ken? Your last mentioned scenario tends to target poor graphic designers only. There's also loads of poor signmakers working with good graphic designers too.
Either or. Basically put, if you don't know something, be willing to learn it, no matter which side you're on. And also be willing to teach it if the other side doesn't know. That issue will go on forever because they are different industries.
[ February 07, 2010, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: Donna in BC ]
Posted by Dana Stanley (Member # 6786) on :
I think a lot of sign people are indeed graphic designers, in fact I know that many here in Letterville do both. The problem is there are designers who work in print and don't pay enough attention to the billions of signs they drive by.
Having just gone to school for graghic design I can tell you they spend little effort on sign design. Some basic stuff, calculating how big your lettering needs to be for a bill board that is so high and so far off the road. The fact that you view a sign from a lower elevation so depending of how it is situated you may want to use a slightly larger font on top so it doesn't look disproportionate.
We did projects on business cards, fliers, logos, envelopes, web sites, etc. but not one sign, or screen printed stuff either. There should be more emphasis on signs as it is a big industry, evident by the sign identifying the building we were studying in, or the room number on the wall, or main campus sign, etc.
But most of what we did could be applied to signs. We certainly did learn about words like vector, bitmap,raster,kerning,resolution,etc. We used all the Adobe programs that are in the master creative suite.
I too would have to wonder about a designer who doesn't know what vector is and why you would prefer it. I went threw the same thing while working for an art association. Couldn't understand why it was important to get vector art for vinyl signs. I ended up creating vector for a few of the logos they were using. I think some people learn to cut and paste, maybe access some templates with office word, and "bingo" they are a graphic designer, as long as they have an art degree they are all set. I think there are a lot of talented artists wasting their time trying to be graphic designers.
[ February 07, 2010, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: Dana Stanley ]
Posted by Kathy Weeks (Member # 10828) on :
I've experienced the 'graphic designer' that designs around "popular colors this year - are puce and celery" Yikes! It would be nice, if all graphic designers, upon starting an assignment, would do a little research first - where is this design going? What are the finished dimensions? What is this design going on? Who's the target market? I was a trained sign painter first - not so good at design . . .A trained graphic designer/commercial artist second, learned better design . . .and hopefully, rolled into one - a good sign maker/graphic designer. I was always taught - do research first. You can't create from just sitting at a desk. I always try to get the big picture, and as much info. as possible before starting a project. I really think it's all about where graphic designers are getting their teaching from, and also about keeping an open mind, and wanting to learn. Just my 2 cents. Good topic!
Posted by Dale Feicke (Member # 767) on :
I think Alicia had a good point about educating the masses. There are still many who equate a "sign painter" with some grubby old wino who goes around slapping up shabby looking signs; someone covered with paint, smelling of spirits (of some kind or another).
Graphic designers, on the other hand, are perceived in a different light. First, and very important in today's world (although entirely meaningless), they have a title. That shows they have been to school. Whether or not what they learned is entirely unrelated to what they may be trying to sell; the perception is there. Many wear suits; another misconception. Our world is very focused on 'appearance', whether or not it is functional.
We sign painters, are in general, perceived as more of the corner mechanic, the village smithy, the local handyman....someone who can do a job; but not a "professional" like graphic designers would like for us to believe.
That's where the education of the customer comes in, and where we can shine, given the opportunity. John had a good point, letting the customer really see some of the work done, or being done. Let them see your capability. Then, ususally the lights will come on.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Yeah...we offer more services and make less.
Posted by Michael Clanton (Member # 2419) on :
This is a tired old issue that takes on many forms- paint -vs- vinyl, mac -vs-pc, formal education -vs- school of hard knocks, the world -vs- lawyers... people tend to want to take sides and justify whichever side of the line they happen to fall on. It even gets more specific within a chosen field-
for example: in the screenprinting world the production artists are always at odds with guys back in the print shop.
In the web world, people argue over stupid things like the merits of tables over layers, how wonderful yet simple CSS is or how frustrating yet magically versatile Flash can be. Then you have the coding geeks trying to push their specific strengths and skills over the designers geeks who just want it to look good because that is their skill.
Sign guys complain about graphic designers, graphic designers complain about ad agencies, and all of them complain about architects and planning committees.
Don't have answers- matter of fact, most of the time I dig my heels in the sand and try to defend my side of line just as much as anybody else-
Sometimes I have a hard time picking sides: I am a formally trained graphic designer, yet learned most of what I know from Hard Knox University. I also worked in sign shops and learned how to hand letter and use a vinyl cutter, hand draw layouts and pounce patterns, as well as use the computer as a tool to design and print. In screenprinting I have worked as both a creative artist and a production artist by day, and at night, I was in the print shop pulling squeegees and mixing ink. In the web world, I kinda understand the complexity and necessity of coding, of making everything function correctly. But the visual thinker in me wants it to look like a unique, incredible piece of art. I can see the pros and cons on each side of a bunch of these topics.
I have produced all types of art and design for all types of clients, yet still knows the disappointing sting when people overlook me and take their project to somebody much less skilled or qualified. I get really tired of hearing "oh, I didn't know you did that... I thought you just did _______"
At least we can all agree on the architects and lawyers...
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Applause]](graemlins/applause.gif)
Good topic!