quote:

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Originally posted by bruce ward:
damn at those prices who wants to own one

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I worked for a national sign distrubitor years ago, and I talked them into getting a printer, an Encad, and after that experience, I say the same thing.

After buying the printer, the rip, materials, inks, and going to school to learn to run it, I figured out real quick that there are too many wholesalers out there.

I'm lucky enough to have someone that prints for me about an hour away @ about $4.00 per square foot, so I just send her my files.
 

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Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
 
I'm with Mark. Whatever my wholesaler charges me, I add a 40% margin plus the cost of shipping.

.
 

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Posted by Robert Cole (Member # 477) on :
 
Just found out that this summer alone, that 5 new printers where sold within 15 miles of my shop. FOUR of them went to part timers {ie} Schoolteacher, Delphi worker, barber, and some guy with a wood shop. "THERE GOES THE NEIGHBORHOOD!
I will just sit back and pick up the pieces when these wannabees figure out they can't make their lease payments, or they don't have the talent of a three toed tree frog when it comes to design.Jill said it best many times,"just because you can, doesn't mean you should". These flakes will throw every wiz-bang doo-dad at the process, and STILL end up looking like SHT.

Regards.
Bob C.

BTW. there will be a large SALE of slightly used equipment at the end of next year. Watch for it!
 

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Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on :
 
Exactly the reason I haven't ponied up the $30K for a new solvent printer. You can buy a good new vinyl plotter for under $2K, add $6K for the software, computer, monitor, etc and you can still sell stuff all day long at about $5/sq. ft. for simple, one-color cut vinyl, no hassles, no whining about perfectly matched colors, no HUGE files, no rip software, no HUGE investment, no HUGE equipment that is near obsolete in a year, no lamination, just quick cash flow. Ahhhhhhh the simple life! My HP5000 is doing just fine but considering the market and what it's doing, including our vendors selling to every Tom, Dick and Harry, I decided I'm not going to go in that direction; if I can't make more money with less time, effort, inventory, space and expense then I'll stick with what I have. I used to get all goo-goo eyed over the new toys and felt like I "needed" them - Bah, Humbug!
 

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Posted by Patrick Whatley (Member # 2008) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Cole:
These flakes will throw every wiz-bang doo-dad at the process, and STILL end up looking like SHT.

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I'll say it again, the average consumer can't tell the difference between good and bad design. The more "cool" effects you can add the better they think it will look.

But back to the topic, I'm in the same town as Bruce. With the going rate for digital printing we can't justify buying one. I'm getting digital banners for $3.00 psf individually and $1.75 psf in quantity. Vinyl printing is $3.25, $3.75 with contour cutting, and $5.99 UV Laminated and cut.

We charge $6 - $8 psf for banners (design figured seperately) and $12 - $20 for vinyl.
 

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Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
 
Looks like it's time for a new term in the industry...

...quicky printy shop?
 

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Posted by sue brown (Member # 6677) on :
 
we get between $10- $15 for our digital prints. on banners and on vinyl..

car magnets we are at 160.00 a pair for digital printed ones..
We dont have a problem selling our digital work and getting the prices we ask.
we have developed a reputation for real quality work and people as a whole dont seem to mind paying for the quality and knowing it will be done when they need it.
 

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Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
 
Last week I was talking with a customer and he asked "Why don't you get printing equipment so you can do it in-house instead of sending out for it?"

I grinned and said "OK, you give me the $60,000 for the printer, laminator, software, upgraded computer system, training and wasted materials for the learning curve then give me free rent on a place large enough to house the equipment plus working space, and I'll run right out and get one. The only way I'll invest in it is if I can pay it off in 6 months, otherwise it's not worth the hassle for me."

The look on his face was priceless.

I generally resale outsourced prints at $14/sq ft for "cash and carry" smaller items like posters and ironically, the same price for larger things like box/cube vans or trailers including installation, plus a couple $$ more per sq. ft. for rivets if there are any and sometimes even upcharges on the final product if the artwork on it is so cool it really commands a higher price.
 

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Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
 
We seem to be around the average price I have seen.
We wholesale prints to other shops at $4 a Sqft when we open and print no pc time. Any color corrections are $75 hr.
Retail prints arent by the foot but by the job so it varies anywhere from $9 to $15 sqft plus design time.
Banners are $9 -$12 a sqft plus Hem fee. (Client doesnt see a break down on this as we just have a seemstress Hem all our banners. We worked out a flat rate with her $10 per banner no matter what size. Sometimes we do better sometimes she does but it works out in the end)
We paid for our printer in 2 mos with the added sales and the wholesale side will be buying a new Flatbed UV printer next year.
We are adding a Screen printing side in a few months and then a possible Tjet in January.
We also Just bought a Larger Building We will be closing on it Next week (Pending the EPA Phase One comes Back Favorable) and the have to move again. Going from 5000 sqft to 25,000 sqft over. We will be able to finally pull vehicles in the shop and have a seperate clean room for the printers, Seperate out building for the router and woodshop, Sandblast booth for all the rock and a Our own sign/plastic supply in . Will post pics of the building soon.
 

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Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
 
Ray... how about sprinty-printy...

Although lots of the work I see around here is squinty-printy: you have to squint so it doesn't hurt your eyes. Wild color combos and signs so busy you can't even figure out who's advertising...

Also we have the plenty-printy going on around the P'cola area as well, one of our local wholesale sign warehouses has sold something like 15 VersaCamms in the last 6 months.
 

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Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on :
 

quote:

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...Going from 5000 sqft to 25,000 sqft over. We will be able to finally pull vehicles in the shop and have a seperate clean room for the printers, Seperate out building for the router and woodshop, Sandblast booth for all the rock and a Our own sign/plastic supply in.[/QB]

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Don't forget about the soccer field and the olympic sized swimming pool and small shopping mall . Wow Bill that is great; glad to see you doing so well there!!!
 

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Posted by Stefanie Fox (Member # 6523) on :
 
Thank you all for your valuable input. Doug, I do not know what it is going for in my area, as I do not typically do any digital vinyl graphics at all, since I am a window splasher. I have, however, been thinking about changing my windows over to that media instead. I have been painting on static cling since May, with great results. I am now talking to a client with multiple stores and am thinking printing is the way to go. I have a fellow locally who is willing to wholesale printed static cling to me at $4.50 sq ft, + $1.00 sq ft to contour cut. He says he can do better for a qty of 150'+ ft. Sounds a little pricier than what other folks are paying. Maybe it's the "Atlanta premium" Anyone have further comments or advise here?
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by William DeBekker:
We paid for our printer in 2 mos with the added sales...

...Just bought a Larger Building

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Great Bill!

seems the naysayers are always the ones afraid to take the risk... you don't see many actual owners of inkjet printers saying it was a bad idea. (oh yeah... the usual response is that we would rather defend our purchase then admit a mistake)

At $200K for the year so far, my sales are up over $88,000 in the last 12 months vs. the previous 12.

Mike is right... I spent almost $60K if I count shipping in a huge inventory of large format inkjet media & some shop renovations to accomodate the equipment.

With a little marketing savvy... you are not going after the $4.50/ft. accounts... you will be doing prints for resorts, conventions, commercial printers & graphic designers. Let Kinko's have the sprinty-printy clients... there's millions to be made in printing... & believe me... it's not all being made by the manufacturers... AND it's not all going to dry up tomorrow. But keep telling yourselves that if you must. The rest of us will just get more printers to meet the demand, like Bill is.
 

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Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
 
To pick up on what Jon said, some of the jobs are Squinty-Sprinty-Printy. Say that five times real fast!
 

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Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
 
I dunno Doug, there has to be some merit to the other side of the argument. Why do we hear about and see so many beating themselves up on price to justify their purchase?

I get all kinds soliciting me and prices I can't pass up. Not naysaying digital printing, just why should I invest in it when my neighbor will and print for me at a profit for me.
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
True David. I would have to agree that the other side of the argument has merit. I am fortunate, (& probably a minority)that at least for the moment... the large format digital printing market is far from saturated in my area.

But I think we hear about cut-throat prices a lot in all aspects of the sign business... & partly because we like to rant about it when we hear about it, so while it may still be the exception, rather then the rule... we hear more about cheap printing then profitable printing...

It just seems funny sometimes when the inkjet-sky-is-falling theories stack up here so quickly... speaking against the value of making a business investment...

...but when the people who actually made the investment take time to report back... the actual profitability numbers look a whole lot more impressive then the doomsday theories would have others think.
 

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Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
 
If I sold enough digital printing to justify purchasing my own equipment, I would buy it, without a doubt.

Right now, I just don't have the volume of digital sales to support the purchase. I'm sure that will change, eventually.

One thing I have noticed is that while there are 3 or 4 sign shops I know of in town that have digital printing equipment, I don't see a whole lot of printed stuff around, and the printed stuff I do see isn't very impressive.

I've been doing more and more design and photography for print and have been promoting larger print advertising, it just hasn't taken off. It's almost like people here are happy with lower end garbage. Then again, one day I was at another shop with printing equipment and they had a customer in there, talking about options with him. They didn't even mention digital printing, in fact I was leaning against the printer as it wasn't running. I presented him with the idea of photographing his product and having huge photos printed to be put on his box vans and his eyes lit up at the idea. Here I am trying to sell this dude on a premium service for *another* sign shop! I guess it never happened because I saw one of his trucks with some layered vinyl stripes on it.
 

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Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
 
I have a local supplier who charges $4.00 to $7.50, depending on the material, lamination, etc. I am subbing more and more work to him.

I always prefer having my own equipment because then I can control the delivery and quality, experiment and do lots of other projects, but I cannot justify the expense yet of a wide format unit. When I get to the point that I'm regularly spending as much or more than the payments on a printer would cost, I'll start seriously considering the machine.

By that time, I'll have plenty more confusing options to consider.
 

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Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
 
Hiya Stephanie,
I'm like the others that don't own a printer. I use a reliable wholesale source and mark up my cost, sometimes doubling it, depending on the project. Design is additional.
My cost for a digitally printed banner can be as low as $1.75 sq. ft. for a low resolution, billboard print. A smaller, high resolution banner will cost me about $3.75 sq. ft., unfinished. Hemming is an additional 90¢ sq. ft. and grommets are 50¢ each.
Digital printing on clear static cling can be done if your vendor can print white. If that's the case, his price doesn't sound unreasonable.
You can always contour cut the media yourself to save some money, but why bother with the headaches. If you screw up, it costs you. If your vendor screws up, it costs him

Havin' fun,

Checkers
 

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Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
 
I dont see alot of printing around here either, except for the tint shop in a neighboriung town and all his stuff is starting to fade. Actually he about the only one around here wrapping stuff

Not profitable for me to purchase one. Dont sell enough printing, and most companies around here are not even running theirs all the time
 

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Posted by Bill Burris (Member # 3570) on :
 
Me to wife talked me out of buying versacam. Local suppy house sells 2-6 per month. Want to creat a market before buying and can sub out. Did not think of the hackers that will not to pay for the lease, but that makes sense too. When I create the market and get my corel in my head, will mabe pick one up cheep.
 

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Posted by Stefanie Fox (Member # 6523) on :
 
Thanks!

Doug,
you are right, I am not going for a $4.50 sq ft account here; its very large indeed. Since I am not in position to purchase the machine, I was thinking about subbing unil I could. A stepping stone, if you will. I could learn a lot in the process before I make the investment, ie: work the bugs out first! :-)

Checkers,
I think you brought up a point that I had not taken into consideration: quality of resolution! The price in question now makes perfect sense. Quality=time=price...ya get what ya pay for.

David,
Squinty-Sprinty-Printy!
Squinty-Sprinty-Printy!
Squinty-Sprinty-Printy!
Squinty-Sprinty-Printy!
Squinty-Sprinty-Printy!
:-)

I appreciate everyone's thoughts and time on this post, it means a lot to me.
 

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Posted by Paul Luszcz (Member # 4042) on :
 
The last time I did the math, the break even break even was well over $100K per year in print sales. Not counting all the extras that might go with a print sale, like installation, or cut vinyl window graphics, etc.

If you sell $88,000 worth of prints at $10/sf, your equipment costs alone are $2/SF. Add in vinyl, laminate, waste, labor and space and it's hard to beat buying wholesale at $3.50.

My point is not that this is how it works out for you Doug, but it just shows that the threshold to break even is much higher than most people realize and much, much higher than the equipment suppliers ever let on.

And, by the way, I do own an inkjet printer.
 

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Posted by Paul Luszcz (Member # 4042) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Paul Luszcz:
The last time I did the math, the break even was well over $100K per year in print sales. Not counting all the extras that might go with a print sale, like installation, or cut vinyl window graphics, etc.

If you sell $88,000 worth of prints at $10/sf, your equipment costs alone are $2/SF. Add in vinyl, laminate, waste, labor and space and it's hard to beat buying wholesale at $3.50.

My point is not that this is how it works out for you Doug, but it just shows that the threshold to break even is much higher than most people realize and much, much higher than the equipment suppliers ever let on.

And, by the way, I do own an inkjet printer.

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Posted by Paul Luszcz (Member # 4042) on :
 
Sorry, meant to edit a typo and hit the wrong icon.
 

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Posted by Dusty Campbell (Member # 4601) on :
 
There is a range of prices around here, from $4.00 a square foot to $15/sq.ft. for roughly the same stuff. Then add lamination, contour cuts etc. and the price goes up from there. Some shops' ideas of wholesale are different than others. They may not want to sell wholesale at all, so they'll price accordingly. That's their prerogative(yes, that's the correct spelling).

Now what it retails for is a different story. That same $4/sq.ft print I'll be charging $12-15 for retail.
 

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Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
 
There is so many different arguments on the Plusses and minus and all very good.
I think the best thing is, Do what works for you and your company. Many people thought/think I was nuts for going out and getting the printer and many other items and a new building.
The one thing about any piece of equipment weather its a Printer, a Multicam or even a chopsaw..
Its just a tool and they won't make you any money unless you work them and make them make you money.. One thing when I was outsourcing prints I really wouldn't design for print as it was a hassle to have to wait and hope they could read my file correctly. Now that we have the printer we run it a steady 5 to 8 hours a day because now I design for it.
I can honestly say our Roland increased our bottom line by $5000 a month because we design for it.
We have just reached the point of the next battle of technology. First it was Paint VS Vinyl. Now it will be my Summa plotter against your Roland Versacamm. Blah blah blah.
 

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Posted by John Deaton (Member # 925) on :
 
I entered a contest to win a printer. If I dont win one, Ill buy one. Having one right here that I can use anytime I want to, for me is the way to go. Only one in my area right now, and he is moving pretty soon to another larger area.
I think I could really do some awesome stuff with one, and thats the way the market is moving, so Im gonna move with it.
 

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Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
 
We just added on a VersaCamm SP-540V. I love it.
We still have our Gerber Edge, but are trying NOT to use it. We want to see if we can do the majority of the digital printing on the VC.

I too was wondering how much to charge for printing, but SignCraft has that covered in their price guide, so we have been using that.

My opinion is that if you have the equipment, it will pay for itself. But even better is some projects can be done the same day, if not the same hour or while the customer waits.

The other reasons to own, is that if you screw up a print, it could cost you a client because you didn't meet a deadline. And then those are those customers who have last minute changes.

We fought off the urge to buy a large format printer, but its a tool, and it makes money, despite the competition and every print shop in town that owns one.

We use to buy wholesale prints locally for $3.00 sq for the ARIZONA prints (Versacamn is way better quality) and $1.00 s.f for billboard prints on MUER printer (spelling?) 72 dpi.

The trouble buying from them was that they would promise to run the print, then not do it, or it came out screwed up and we had to go back and get it redone.

The last reason to own: is vehicle wraps. There are a lot of areas that have to overlap, thus requiring a double print of that section of the vehicle. How do you tell the supplier all those little places that need a double print to pull off the effect? We can cilp the little sections we need, run them all at once, and we're done.
And don't forget the vision vinyl that goes on the window, those have to be carefully calculated as to where double prints have to be made.

Learning curve? Versacamm is pretty simple. Its designing the artwork in Adobe and Corel that is the learning curve for me since I am use to OMEGA, but I can still design in OMEGA and save as and .AI file then open it in Corel and print to the VC

Pro or con to owning or subbing out is really what your main market is.
 

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Posted by Jamie Nicholson (Member # 6690) on :
 
I am on my second gerber edge, and up until last year I was the only one in the area to have digital capabilities, closest company to farm to was 2 hours away, Not that I have the design talents of most on here, but I charge heavy for full colour prints,$20-30 per foot depending on graphics (Except for Oldtime Signs. lol
 

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Posted by Felix Marcano (Member # 1833) on :
 
Sign makers all over the island are selling prints for around $2.00 a s/f. I get them for $1.75. I sell them for around $5.00, but as = you can imagine, I don't sell that many. I got a call from Viacom (NY) the other day requesting a 14' x 48' print. I think I quoted them four-something a s/f. They said they could get it for a quarter of that... The natural response, if you're getting such a great deal, why are you shopping around?

I did find out from a good source, that the big sign supply store (Who also does digital printing for anyone who walks through the door) is selling prints to Viacom for $1.00 a s/f.

My printer has been down for months now. I'm in no hurry to fix it.
 

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Posted by Tim Whitcher (Member # 685) on :
 
Felix,
This will be the norm in a few years, when more and more clients can provide their own files.
 

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