i Working on a project and was woundering how you price gold. per square inch..?
Black Outline 23K deep glass leaf(outline) 12k white leaf (for microphone mouth piece Christian Radio) Matt Centers oneshot painted colors
comments and help on pricing this thing!
p.s. the total image is 22'x44'
[ March 10, 2006, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: Chris Lovelady ]
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
I like it Chris and it looks and sounds like it will be a fun and challenging project. I hope you mean 22 x 44 inches though I'm just shooting from the hip here, but I would estimate that you're looking at a full day of work, plus the design time. So, I'm going to say that it's worth about $1,525. I came up with that price using Estimate's window lettering plug-in and the default configuration settings. The only adjustment I made is that I increased the market level to 75% Then, I figured 75% coverage in gold and 150% coverage with paint. Design was estimated at 1.5 hours and execution is at 8.25 hours. There was an additional $37.50 for the trip and another $30 to clean the window. I may be totally off base on this, but I feel that a design of that size and caliber is worth at least that much, if not much more. Just look at the art on Mike Jackson's site, http://www.goldenstudios.com/ and use that for reference I don't have a copy, but I would also suggest that you look at the signwriters pricing guide for reference too.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by Chris Lovelady (Member # 2540) on :
Thanks Checkers,
I will be doing all the black and matt centers with a paint mask stencil. the matt center will be done first with quick rubbing varnish then the outlines with lamp black mixed with Quick rubbing varnish and hardner. then peal the mask and let dry. this will be a boston gild. the color will then be painted in. the guilding will take the longest. by using the mask i think i can cut my labor in half.
In "Estimate" i used the vinyl signs plug in and used the "install on customer glass" with the paint mask as my material then added paint with 2 coats(black and mat center). the labor for putting it on is included in that line item.
then i figured my square inch cost for the gold and used that as a plug in under (material, paint..) i came up with $0.45 sqin...so a 6" letter would run about $16.25 for the gold alone. labor and stencil not included.
The gold estimate came out to 2times my cost of the gold with the 100% mark up and included in that (0.45$ sqin) is the price for double guilding. then i added a free form for labor to top it off 4 hrs @ 95$per...i can do it in 3 trips....
stencil and paint...$127 gold..577sqin.......$259.65 labor @ 4hrs ...guilding, painting color, backing and varnishing......$386.20 3 trips at 25$......$75
i came up with $847.85
chris
Posted by Tony Segale (Member # 1380) on :
way to cheap, Chris. The only way I price a Gold Leaf Window is one way only...no pricing guide.
Add... your design time pattern time load/ travel time prep of glass time create size, size glass and gild close the overlaps repeat check for pin holes spot size and third gild if necessary time for applying your varnish for matte finish time for backup letters cleaning excess gold outlines estimate the amount of gold to cover the gilded areas, x 2 for second gild, add 30% for any possible failure or error add cost of size, paints, varnish and any additional sundries total add 10 % error add 10 % profit
basically all the steps necessary to produce a first class, high quality gold leaf job...the traditional hand lettering craft way. Should you decide to use a mask or any technique to speed up the process is your choice to produce the same quality job and keep your profits. Don't sell yourself or the skill of the gold leaf craftsman short just to obtain the job. Price the job like the skilled craftsman you are, and the rewards will follow.
that's just my two cents on how I proceed on all my quotes, and if I don't get it, whew, I can take a breath a finish the other jobs that are backed up.
(preliminary estimate without finer calculations is $2200-$2500.)
Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
Don't even forget what the percieved value of a sign like this is worth. Very few people have the necessary skills anymore to do gold window work.
The client is getting extreme value for his money on adverstising of this caliber... and besides, religious business's have plenty of money anyway. I've made a good chunk of change off of churchs' over the years and I'm a damn athiest! But who am I too judge
[ March 10, 2006, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: Bob Stephens ]
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
I'd say you are too low also, by at least half.
I think it's gonna take longer than 4 hours to gild and backup. All the glass gold jobs I ever did involved a ton of waiting. I never got close to getting by with a single gild.
Also, have you had any experience doing it with a mask? I've read of folks having problems using vinyl masks leaving a residue that the gold crawls away from. I would think the "ridge" formed by the paint buildup from using a mask would also present problems.
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
I'm not going to comment on the pricing - well maybe ...I did think your price sounded low Chris.
I just wanted to make a suggestion as to the design if I may....If you extended the top left serif on the J until it almost touches the W I think it would eliminate an awkward negative space that seems to break up the design. The right bottom corner of the J could also be pulled down (squared off)a bit in order to eliminate a bit of a hole between it and the E. I hope you don't mind me adding this, but if you are doing it in gold it will be around for a while, it will make a nice portfolio piece and it is an easy tweak.
Posted by Jill Marie Welsh (Member # 1912) on :
I dunno about pricing but I would definately not use a mask. I'd make a backwards paper pattern and stick it on the outside of the glass like I saw John Jordan do at Mars. Any masking I've tried has not been a happy experience. Also, you do have to ask yourself how many other signfolks are there in your area who can do glass gilding? Probably not very many. That increases YOUR value Chris. Love....Jill
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
... Chris, No less than $1500. ...2 grand is more like it. And skip the "shortcuts".
Posted by Chris Lovelady (Member # 2540) on :
It is Now obivious that i have under bid, i sould bid it at worst case senerio. I have used stencils in the past and pealed wile the Lamp Black was still wet and so the paint layed down to so not to give the squared edge...but i'm thinking that something this size would have the paint dry quicker than i could peal...i will consider the traditional way or maybe silk screen it on the window.
this project will be going on the downtown area with a revitalization of shops so i am hoping to make a presents for future work...most people are scared of the price of gold leaf and will pass for vinyl...so the stencil is a way i have tried to reduce the production cost to make it more affordable.
I'm aware of perceved value and am the only hand lettering artist in town...but have only been open here for 4 months and this will be a way to seporate my self from all the vinyl jockeys. this is a very small town but with alot of old money!
I support many churches in the area and this is a chance to trade my extra time for advertizing on the radio as well. so in this situation i think it will be a win win situation...i get a awsome peice out in the commminty...they will get great advertizement.
chris
Posted by Doug Fielder (Member # 803) on :
From my recent experience, the lampblack outline with quick rubbing varnish through mask was a nightmare! It sticks REALLY WELL! (to the mask too!) I would go the 1shot with hardener route or freehand it... Mix a tiny bit of yellow tint or white tint to the varnish for centers, so you can see what you are doing. My thing about the mask (atleast for the outlines) is that it produces the EDGE that the water gilded gold doesn't like to get into, or the size flows over, thus no size in tight around the top outlines. I would say for pricing around $1500-$2000. That is a big piece and the matte centers take time. No vinyl jockey can match a 2 tone gild with anything they have.... If this is your first piece that you want to get out into the community in hopes of getting more, you can do it for however much you want, with the understanding that they tell people how much it is worth... I did that and it worked to get me more jobs which paid full... Good Luck though...
Posted by vance galliher (Member # 581) on :
Chris, I agree with Doug. The main deal here is not the money, but rather the opportunity to get a nice piece of goldwork out there. Your price is way low for me, but price for me is a learning process......it seems the more glass work I do, the more I learn, and with the more I learn, the easier it gets for me to get what I want for a piece of my work. And who but me is to say how much I should get? Glasswork for me is not "competitive" work... but it certainly is "learned" work..and not done for quick turnaround time. My choice has been to turn out less, but more high quality work, and be paid more. So I truly feel with this kind of work/art , we're the ones that create our own worth. As for the matte centers, rather than tinting the size, just dust the area with fine powder (kaolin). Adding color to size on reverse glass work would change the true color of gold. I've done that before using asphatum,but that was intended. Have fun with your project.....
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
If you have hand lettering skills I would not use a mask, but if you have to use a mask for the outline, use straight one-shot black - it won't dry to fast to get the mask out of the way. I would never use a mask for the matte centers, especially on a fairly simple job like this. Use One-shot fast-dry size for the matte, as it levels out nicely.
As for the money, I wouldn't do this in leaf for less than $2k. Tony has the right idea. Gold on glass is a rare specialty anymore, it's a slim chance that your competitors will do it at all, much less cheaper.
Posted by John Arnott (Member # 215) on :
I would guess at About $1200 or less! I would also do all this without a mask. 2 short days of fun and a little gold. My gut tells me that $500 is too much for this custoner. They will be more than happy to have a digital print installed for about $250 - $300. God luck and please let us know what they decide. John
Posted by john studden (Member # 2360) on :
If you have to use a mask, Gerbermask 1 would work well, I would cut double outlines on the letters where ever you can, then weed them a few letters at a time. 1-shot with hardener would be okay. The matte centers could be done at the same time using the appropriate varnish & more weed lines, or as stated the kaolin method. Let everything dry overnight. next day flatten the glossy centers with 0000 steel wool, until they take on a uniform flat appearance. Clean lightly with window cleaner. Now Gild everything using water size with the addition of 2 drops of IVORY washing up liquid per pint, this will pull the leaf into the the 1 shot & help it stick to the varnish, 2 applications should take care of that, the just back up with an ochre or bronzing powder & a quick dry varnish. The whole thing is less than a day & an easy $1500. Good Luck
Posted by Chris Lovelady (Member # 2540) on :
Thanks again for everyone who posted. it looks like i'll be doing this project. and i hope that it will lead to more work like this. There is nothing around this area(50sqr miles) that i know of so i think it will cause a bit of a stir, and an interest in fine Gold glass work.
I like the idea of ruffing the matt centers to give an even flat apperance. do you have to wash the Kaolin before you apply the water size? does the Kaolin help flatten the varnish?
I will be taking alot of pictures so when it is done i will be posting.
chris
Posted by John Arnott (Member # 215) on :
So what did you get? I'm holding my breath. . . go ahead. . . .tell us. . . .
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
The kaolin is there for you to be able to see where you laid on the size. It gives a semi frosted look to the glass, but wherever the size is added, it becomes clear. Yes, after sanding the dry size, clean it good, and then use the water size to get the brilliant gold.
PS>>>>DO NOT ADD COLOR TO YOUR SIZE on reverse glass! It will show and look like crap!
Posted by Chris Lovelady (Member # 2540) on :
i got enough to cover my materials and part of my labor($400)...this will be a labor of love and will recieve a year+ of advertizement on there radio station, also there will be a blasted sign to come at full price...my bid that i would have charged was $1,350. the customer will be advertizing this price when people ask.
Guys, Please forgive me ....but there is no one around that even know what gold leaf is! they say "that sign gold vinyl" when i even refer to it. so this the premier and i'm sure when people see this they will know the value of this kind of sign work.
as i said before i will be posting picture as it is compleated.
thank ya'll for you imput!!!!!
chris
Posted by Chris Lovelady (Member # 2540) on :
i posted in the portfolio page the fished project with some step by steps i did. i did the paint mask and had some great results.
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...I did think your price sounded low Chris.