I find it ironic that with so many dedicated sign professionals in this industry, that a magazine that comes out 6 times a year would profile a Dry Cleaner and a Farmer who both do signs on the side and at night.
I have nothing against anyone who can make a beautiful sign. In fact I could do more of them if it was a hobby and I had another job to pay the bills.
But A magazine dedicated to the industry that featured a couple of "part-timers" just rubbed me the wrong way.
Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
Yeah....but it's called Signcraft not signINDUSTRY....
It's about the craft...part time, full time or retiree...it's about the CRAFT and the quality they produce.
That's what I look for every issue....
Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :
Barry, Thanks for explaining what the magazine is about. After 10 years of subscriptions, I get it.
By the way, I have clean fresh clean shirts and beautiful tomatos.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Mike..I started out as a "Part Timer" too. Soon found out that I could make more money doing sign work full time than I was in my previous business.
Went "Full Time"...
Now I am "Part Time" again. Part of the time I work...the rest of the time I don't!
I do know what you mean though Mike. I have a hard time coping with a "Part Timer" in my area.
The problem is the guy is GOOD...but he works full time at a sign shop, knows his stuff, but moonlights with good quality layouts and work, just for "beer money/spare change" prices.
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
Mike, about 8 or 9 years ago, I got a job at a print shop up the road. No, not your basic Quickprint, he has a small paper. I had worked in a sign shop a few years before that, & he found out, so he hired me to put together his signs. He had put his son through schooling to learn to make signs, & his son decided he didn't like to do it, so he would do the layouts, cut it at home, then bring the stuff in for me to put together. The bad thing was, his son used mostly medium blue, & almost always helvetica! Ugh!
Anyway, I did this for Min. wage back then, then moved on to printing a big full sized newspaper about 40 minutes away. While there, i realized I did NOT like what I was doing, it was NOT artistic. (unless you call running the color on the front page artistic!)So, I decided to take out a loan for a plotter, & I started my own business. My old boss at the small print shop asked me to train a young girl to do what i did, but she didn't like it, so we made a deal.
I put his signs together, & sometimes I get to lay the jobs out & cut them myself. Sometimes his son does the layouts & has me put them together. I get $10 an hour plus an ad running in his weekly paper in 3 areas for our sandblasted rocks. It equals out very nicely, considering the cost of an ad in 3 papers! Plus, we DO get a lot of business from the ads.
I guess what I would like to say is, I do not like the Quickprint places at ALL. I think they really put a hurting on some of us, but I do not consider this guy one of them. There is a shop about 30 miles from here that does everything, junk store, U Store it, mulch, truck accesories, & you guessed it... signs & banners! I don't like that, but what can I do?
I guess maybe we ought to think about the guys in the magazine this way... If they are talented artistically, they should be doing something with it, right? If they are NOT talented artistically, well then.... Posted by Jason Davie (Member # 2172) on :
Mike, Question---I rent a Storefront for my sign bus. but in My small town there isn't enough bus for me to afford the toys or other wants that I have. I am open 4 hours every week day and all day saturday. I have tryed full time but I didn't pick up anymore bus. than I already had. I work as a carpemter the rest of my time..
Does this make me a part timer? If it does o'well.. but my passion is in signs and lettering.. and I thought that that was what letterheads was about..If I was full time I would put the same effort and love into signs as I do now.. So I could starve by just making signs or make a living and still have fun and make more money by doing what I like also..
Just another opinion
Jason D
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Jason..Keep doing what you are doing if it works for you!
From your picture I believe you are still a young guy and you have to or want to do whatever it takes to earn a decent living. Keep doing it!!!
I have no problem with anyone earning money however they can (legitimately ) My earlier post was acually my frustration at a person who is already employed in the sign business full time, driving down prices locally because he can do it in his "after hours" time.
This particular person, if he had the inclination to go self employed, could be earning far more than he does as an employee at his present job.
BUT self employment isn't for everyone.
Posted by Jason Davie (Member # 2172) on :
dave, as far a s my prices go I'm priced with Estimate which is at least equal too the compition or a little above.. Just because Im part time im not lowering my prices .. no way..
Thanks !! Jason D Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Jason..I never meant to imply that YOU didn't price properly..
And I KNOW that you always get a "deposit" now that I see where you reside! Posted by Jason Davie (Member # 2172) on :
lol now thats good ya got me dave...
I was just explaning my situation.. I now you didn't
I do forget a deposit now and then..
Jason D
Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
Mike, I never said I didn't get your point....I empathize with your gripe....but if the "part-timers" work is good enough to be in Signcraft, don't they deserve the same level of recognition as a "full-timer"?
Just askin....
Posted by Sonny Franks (Member # 588) on :
Barry, thanks for getting us back on topic - here's my take on it - I see your point, quality shines no matter the source, but I gotta agree with Mike. There's some people out here who have paid their dues, producing some killer work and sending it in, but it's not published.
I saw an Australian blues guitar player last night who won the International Blues Challenge in Memphis this year (Jimi Hocking) but by the third set, only 10 people were left in the place to witness an unbelievable behind-his-head-while-doing-a-split T-Bone Walker chunky riff that left goosebumps on the few folks lucky enough to stick around. I guess Rodney Dangerfield got it right.
(that was an analogy - did it work?)
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Well I am a full time student at College to futher my education in this business and a part time Signwriter at night to bring in money for FOOD,BEER,GAS,BILLS................
After 30 years of doing this I never low ball a price to pick up the work.....
I know what I am worth and have many customers return because they know my work.
I have had many upcoming talented people ask if I would teach them to Airbrush or to Paint or Design Graphics....
My response is for them to look around,study what they see,and pratice what they like and know. Everyone needs to eat even if it's the crumbs left over.
Posted by Rovelle W. Gratz (Member # 4404) on :
Mike, I take it that you started out as a full time sign painter.....very interesting.
Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
Sonny...good point. Far be it from me to say that both sides don't have merit.
I just empathize with the mag....and the part timers to a degree...is their contribution to the biz somehow less worthy 'cause they can't support their families with the occupation where they live?
Myself, I don't know if I love this biz enough to do it AND another job. If I couldn't pay the bills doing it...then I'd do something else....so from that perspective, my hat is off to the part time guys who may love it even more than me!
[ July 09, 2005, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Barry Branscum ]
Posted by Shane Bennett (Member # 3968) on :
I think the problem here is not the part-timer but the fact that the guy does it for beer and chips. Because he isn't relying on it for his main income. maybe you should go over there and let him know that he is leaving money on the table. I myself am a part-timer because there is not enough work here in little town farmer USA to support 4 sign shops. But I love the work. So I went and got my journeymen's in electrical work construction. No one does the old signs here, just print and stick (not meaning any disrespect you understand.. it's good work too) so I am trying to introduce 3D signage and the like. As well as better my talents to offer a more traditional sign. But I do not... NOT lower my prices. Some times I'm higher because I have to work at night. But even in the electrical business there are carpenters low balling the bid because they do it on the side. Regulation is making it harder for them to do that because a messed up electrical job will cause a fire... which could loose a life. Hummmm maybe if we could show how a bad sign could cause mental distress... and then all kinds of symptoms then they might regulate and licence signpeople... :}
Posted by Hugh Potter (Member # 5748) on :
i can understand that if a part timer is cuting prices for beer money, then that is a bit harsh on someone trying to make a living, but like i think Barry said, if someone is working part time, producing high quality work, and charging an appropriate rate, then i see no problems,
i would still consider myself part time, even though i have no full time job, i bought my cutter cos i was fed up waiting indefinetly for signage for my race car, and decals to sell on at the track, well i never really got to use the machine to sign my car, other than signs which were only on for a weekend or two for fun, and the odd job for a mate,
following redundancy about 4 months ago, and after having no luck finding a job which suited my needs (ie allowing me to still have my kids for 6 days at a time, drop em off for school and get to work kinda stuff,) i decided to learn to use the cutter properly and have a go at building this into a profitable business,
after only a couple of months, i am at a stage where i will soon be able to fully support myself, sure the first few jobs were probably underpriced, but all my work now goes on a materials mark up of about 300% and an hourly rate which i feel is fair, i'm not too sure what the biger companies charge per hour for labour, but i charge around £10-15 per hour (20-30$) depending on the customer and what i think the're prepared to spend,
it's worked so far and i've even got jobs where i've quoted higher than other people !! only this wek i was given a job, where i was $40 above the cheapest of three quotes, because the guy liked my attitude, the fact that the lettering was simple and included what he wanted, not what i told him to have, and that i was fast (4 days from first meeting to having the van, sign boards and stickers all done and in his hand !).
i have a lot to learn, both technically and artistically, but i beeive that if i'm fair, i'll get the work, at the rate i'm going, i'll be going as a fully reg'd business in the next two months. full time or part time, we all started somewhere !!
Posted by Bill Dirkes (Member # 1000) on :
Mike, Let me say right off- I would love to be featured in SignCraft! Here's why: I've been in the biz for 25 tears, I believe I am a dedicated sign professional, I have produced some pretty nice work, I have a 1200 sq. ft. shop, The shop pays all the bills except food & mortgage. So I have a target number of $$ I need to bring in monthly. I work 70 - 80 hours a week. It just so happens that 40 of those hours are spent at an outdoor advertising company. Call me crazy, but I love what I do; and plan on doing it till I die. and longer if I thought I could! BTW my prices are a bit higher than other nearby shops, and I get referrals from them for some of the more involved sign work. I also tend to remind these folks that they may be leaving $$ on the table.
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
Just to add a comment, when I was first profiled/featured in SignCraft in 1997, I was part time as well. I had just given notice to my employer, and about a week or so after my article came out, I was doing it full time.
But I did do it part time for about 8 months, prior to full itme.
If they're good enough to make it in there, then I'm not sure how their employment status factors in. It's like discounting their work because they don't work full time at it. Quailty is quality, regardless.
Posted by Mark Yearwood (Member # 2723) on :
Well said, Dan. I too, for many years worked a 40 hr week and did signs in the garage at night until going full time in 1995.
Our own Grampa Dan runs his shop and also has a mini-golf resort. Steve Thomas Greer has a small ice cream store chain that is very successful and he gets to do the signs and interior graphics for them at the same time!
Our shop takes care of itself now, but if my wife had not had a good paying job during those start-up years, I wouldn't be where I am today.
The love of this craft and producing top quality work is the key.
I had a chance to visit with John Parker from Iowa at the Muster. John has recently turned his shop over to his son and is now getting to play with a lot of gold leaf glass and glue chipped pieces in his spare time. He is doing some beautiful work and thoroughly enjoying it.
Don't live to work. Work to live.
Sometimes you have to make sure you are living.
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
I've seen a lot of work done by full-time signpeople that would never be good enough for SignCraft. (At least I would hope SignCraft would never be that desperate that they would need to fill it with that kind of crap. )
What is wrong with a part-timer being in the magazine? If their work is good enough, I have no problem with it. What's next? Women shouldn't be in it?
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
Well said, Kissy
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
i thought the farmer was a fulltime signmaker and part time farmer...not that it really matters. the dry cleaner dude had some really nice stuff...doesn't really matter if he's part time or not...his signs looked good to me. maybe they don't have as many people as you think that send in their stuff. i know sign of the times interviewed me last winter(not that they are picky...lol)and i was suppose to send in some high quality pictures on cd...but i never got around to it. she called a few times but i was just too busy at the time and forgot all about it...i'm sure they'll never give me the time of day again...but whatta ya do. i think there are plenty of talented folks out there that are just too shy or just too busy to approach them.
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Okay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Am I part time!
Sometimes I have someone ask me to Airbrush a portrait!
Sometimes I have someone ask me to paint a sign!
Sometimes I have someone ask me to design an idea!
Sometimes I have someone ask me to do a mural!
Sometimes I have someone ask me to draw a picture!
Sometimes I have someone ask me to carve something for them!
Sometimes I have someone ask me to work magic on the computer for their business!
Other times I sit home alone!
Many times I wish I had my wife as my business partner! Because without her I would be stuck on spelling simple words!
Raven/2005
[ July 11, 2005, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
I have to say that I believe there are many people who don't perform a "defined" craft as a full time profession, yet, they could easily blow the socks off of many full timers.
This is true of mechanics, farmers, signmakers, etc.
Case in point: My father-in-law got fed up with the shoddy farming his paid farmer did on his property. This was a full-time farmer...who would till around a dead tree that fell into the field from the edge of the field, rather than move it out of the way.
So, my father-in-law hires this part-time farmer who works full time at GM. This guy moved all the dead fallen trees out of the way....ditched out a low spot in the middle of the field (that the other farmer let become a swamp) -and then laid tile to drain it, and picked up all the stones in the field, etc......what an awesome job this part-timer does.
And isn't it great we live in countrie(s) where people have the freedom to pursue whatever interests they have, and have the freedom to make extra money for whatever reason they choose?
I do several jobs that used to be full-time shop jobs....I didn't go looking for them either. Wonder what that means?
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Well Kissy seeing as you mention it.............
JUST KIDDING put down that plotter Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
I can see the headlines now....
"Local signmaker gets butt tromped by women... film at 11".
Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :
Again I want to state that I have nothing against anyone who can make a beautiful sign part time, full time or beer time. I did not mean to degrade anyone. It was an observation of the magazine itself. Sonny is on my thought line.
I have a new perspective of a magazine I thought was geared to those who had made sign making thier number one priority as far the trade is concerned.
I guess I was thrown off track when they went to the effort to publish a price book to calculate overhead to run a profitable shop.
Why go through all the trouble when your targeting and featuring sign makers who have an evening hobby?
Hey, and what happened to that all important segment where they were to feature sign makers doing other hobby stuff like riding bikes and playing guitars?
A color by numbers page would be great for the kids too.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
UUHHHHH, Mike, that nasty ego came out .
Really, some people can assume what they like, but most people understand that when its all done the "finished product" is what its all about !
Don't matter who gets featured, nor who they know, or how many dues been paid, now does it ?
Its all good, and we should see that the glass is 1/2 full !
Roger
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
I guess that Mike figures SignCraft should feature full timers who produce crap, rather then those who pruduce work that sets a goal for the rest of us!
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
i do see your point mike...but i don't mind looking at the eye candy if its good....and can only hope they are charging enough. i do admit i think some of their "design and price" prices are too low. but i guess thats a problem with this trade, when part timers(or anyone) sell their work short of true monetary value. i'm so burnt out at this stage that i don't care if someone bytches about pricing...i tell them...feel free to go somewhere else. (which in my head translates to...kiss my lily white ass...i'm here to make a living not fund your halfwit projects.) fine, go to "gimme a case of beer joe"...let him work all his evenings and weekends on his little hobby...eventually maybe he'll get his head outta his ass and figure out a case beer or $20 an hr isn't worth it all his free time.(thankfully we don't have many of those here). i don't wish to live in a shack and eat kraft macaroni and cheese if i'm gonna work this hard.
so mike i understand what you are saying if you are implying that many of the hobbiest are not doing the industry justice by gleefully making signs in their spare time for pocket change. the magazine should be directing folks in the industry to succeed and charge accordingly...i think maybe signcraft is more geared toward the craft rather than making the big bucks so to speak.
why is it that graphic artists can charge higher hourly wages than us(we have WAY more overhead and understand SIGN layout/construction)& they have not a clue about constructing a sign or vehicle lettering???
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
quote: why is it that graphic artists can charge higher hourly wages than us
Because so many, want to remain completly independant, and refuse to conisder any type of unity from which all would benefit in the long run. Look what the Chiropractors did. Look what the Realtors did. Plumbers, Electricians etc.. All got together and formed guilds to stop any ol' jack leg from starting up. But then again, maybe thats the problem. So many started up as hobbyists they dont want to stop that tradition.
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
When the McIltrots began publishing SignCraft they did it part-time, working on a ping-pong table in their grandparents garage.
Their full time job was running a sign shop.
I think I may write more later about the subject of part-timers. Right now I would probably say something stupid (as if that's not normal). My mother always told me that it is better to be silent and be considered a fool than to open my mouth and remove all doubt. But I will probably open my mouth a little later and remove any doubts.
By the way, when I started writing for SignCraft I was not a full time writer...and come to think of it I still do it part time.
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
Isn't it what we do with the parts of time we devote to anything that counts?
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
Wow, well put, nettie! Well put!!! Posted by Philip Steffen (Member # 2235) on :
On the cover of the Sign Craft Magazine it states "The guide to profitable and creative sign production" I read it as Mike is emphasising the profitable part, but others are emphasising the creative part. They are accomplishing both.
Maybe they should have some people in the next issue who do awesome stuff, just spectacular work, but are loosing money hand over fist.
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
We run our little golf course part time... for about a hundred days each summer. I think its world class.
Sometimes I work as a designer and design some pretty cool things. It sure beats working for a living.
I also run a shop where we build the funnest projects... my time is divided between a multitude of jobs, my crew of three works full time.
I also write the occasional article for SignCraft on a very part time basis.
I love to any work of quality and don't much care weather the artist is full time or part time.... its the work and passion which counts for me.
I haven't seen the latest issue yet... but am looking forward to it... as usual.
-grampa dan
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
WOMEN...now there is a problem....hehehehehehe
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
After that one, ya better head for the roundhouse, OP---the women can't corner ya there!
bill preston
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
oh op...thats because we're smarter! Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bruce Bowers: I can see the headlines now....
"Local signmaker gets butt tromped by women... film at 11".
Or see it in person at Jill's Jamboree, August 19-21, 2005!!! Get your registration sent in today, don't miss this opportunity to see the girls of Letterville thump Boob's ass.
(This ad has been brought to you by The committee for shamless plugs for Jill's Jamboree.)
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
karen we only let you belive your smarter...cause we men want to have sex with ya(women)....heheheheheheheheeheheh
[ July 12, 2005, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Kimberly Zanetti (Member # 2546) on :
Hahahahahaha OP! See the thing really is we ARE smarter so we let you believe that you let us believe that we are smarter. Of course we KNOW the eventual goal for all guys is sex.
Kissy, Shall I bring my spiked heels for this event? LMAO?
[ July 12, 2005, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: Kimberly Zanetti ]
Posted by Dana Bowers (Member # 780) on :
I got my Signcraft today and basically skimmed through the articles... main thing was looking at all the photos first!
I agree with Ray, but I'm also a redhead, so sometimes it's totally against my genetics to not speak up!
Does that mean that someone doing signs part time is not a 'dedicated professional'? Nettie said it perfectly. I bet for every part-timer that really loves the craft, I can find several full-timers that are just the opposite.
Does this mean that when I get working more at home here doing signs, but keep my job at the Veterinary Hospital, I need to cancel my subscription to Signcraft and no longer post here?
I can understand the 'clueless guy with the plotter down the street giving his stuff away' making people upset. But the work I saw featured looked pretty darn good.
The only thing that makes sense to me, is that the people most upset by this have had some personal experience with the clueless guy that made for some lasting impressions.
While I understand that part of the emotional effect, it is NOT fair to lump people together. Every situation that a person is in is different.
As much as you may think you know what is going on in another person's life, you have NO CLUE unless you are living right there with them.
Heck, I would be THRILLED to death to be in Signcraft!!!!!
But I guess I will NEVER be in there, no matter how well I do, since I CANNOT go fulltime with the signs. I will be a part-timer.
How fair is that?
Posted by Dana Bowers (Member # 780) on :
PS. Just kinda thought of another couple things.
Sometimes I wonder if people's reactions are fueled by jealousy or envy, even if they really don't think of it that way.
Also... I subscribe to three sign magazines:
AMAL - it features incredibly talented people, awesome eye candy, very cool magazine to look at pictures.
Signs of the Times - I will be dropping my subscription, because it is TOO business.
Signcraft - the PERFECT combination of the two.
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Really Folks
Sometimes I believe we are starving Artists on the way to make more money and the next thing you know, everyone is opening a helping hand.......(To the new ones of this Industry on the Board.
Work is Work...(Small,Tall,HandPainted,Airbrushed,Vinyl,Digital,Print to the Business Cards....
All our backyards have buried Bones!
But that's what makes the learning curve!
Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :
I enjoy Signcraft for a number of reasons. It is the only magazine I subscribe to besides AutoArt. I learn something new each time I open the pages. Thanks to all who contribute.
I do not feel as connected to it as I once did knowing that the guys who do the work are not rolling out the work to make a living. Here we have two different perspectives but reaching the same goal, A beautiful sign. Whether it was sold for top dollar or given away for free.
I'll apologize again if any person was offended by theses posts just so you know that there's no ego to inflate.
I have different expectations than the magazine has, and that's cool. I'll get over it, and continue to subscribe.
[ July 12, 2005, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Mikes Mischeif ]
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
Gee Mike, don't give such a moderate response, some here need you to get hurt and fire back.
Anyways, from what I gather, you seem to take umbrage from those who have the luxury of pulling out all the bells and whistles because they don't need to make their living doing this. Up to a point I agree, but good is good and should be showcased.
(Now you aren't about banning certain genders or minorities are you?) Yikes!
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
OP, it ain't just sex, you LOVE us women, & you know it! That's right... L-O-V-E Love!
You stinker, you! Posted by Dana Bowers (Member # 780) on :
Mike... please explain why you feel this way. I really mean that, I'm trying to understand, but am having a difficult time.
Do you honestly feel that unless you make enough money at signs to pay all your bills, you aren't worthy the recognition of your talent in the craft?
Would you feel differently about these people if they did nothing else but signs... but maybe their spouse had a higher income to help support the family?
I honesly am having a hard time understanding that logic.
If I am to understand you, the ONLY people that should be in Signcraft are people who do nothing but signs, and make enough to support their families on that alone?
Is it the money alone, or the amount of time invested, or a combination of both?
That part really bothers me, that money is the most important part of making a sign. Doesn't that start to seperate it from a craft?
Does it matter what the 'other' job is? What if a guy works 30 hours a week at signs, but then plays in a band 4 nights a week?
Does it matter if he is married or not? If he is single and can support himself better on just signwork - is that better than married, with a new baby and has to get a better job with more benefits to support his family during the day, but continue his signwork on the side, because it is what he loves to do?
What if he was fulltime sign guy, the shop closed up, and he had to work somewhere else? Would that automatically drop him from being recognized?
I know this is NOT a black and white situation, and VERY opinion orientated. But where do you draw the line?
If you base the worth of your fellow signcrafter soley on the amount of time he works at signs and the money he makes doing it, I think there is a great loss.
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
Following this logic... I used to work over a 100 hours EVERY week at my sign business... but try not to go that crazy any more. There are weeks though...
I guess if I was to work 100 hours per week I would be ten times more qualified to appear in SignCraft than someone who put in a measly 10 hours per week or 2 1/2 times more qualified than someone who only did 40 hours... ??
I don't think so... thanks goodness. Its about the work produced.
The signs (done by the Mike Lewis who also owns a dry cleaning operation) pictured in the magazine are pretty awesome! I think they deserve to be there. Does it matter what he does in the rest of his time? How bout if he did boring no parking signs the rest of the week... would that qualify him?
As for the farmer... the article states Gord Colenutt is a FULL TIME sign guy and a part time farmer. His work is pretty spiffy too!
Here at Giggle Ranch I spend some time each day running the tractor and doing various chores as required by our 4 pigmy goats, two mini horses, and 7 chickens. And I mean scooping the poop. Sometimes I even do these chores during business hours. If its a nice day and the lawn needs mowing I do that too as a break from my busy day.
Today Janis & I snuck away for a afternoon matinee at the movies. I hope it didn't disqualify me from appearing in SignCraft in the future.
While I spend very few regular hours at Giggle Ridge Adventure Golf these days I certainly drop everything at the shop when there's some needed maintenance or they need me for some other urgent task.
I'll have to ask the folks at SignCraft next time I talk with them if there is some sort of minimum requirements to appear in those pages in regards to how my time is spent.
I always thought it was about good quality pictures of high end, original work.
I admire folks who can work at what they love each day and at the same time keep in focus the important things in life. If you have the means to do only the high end work and say no to all the ordinary stuff its the best!
At the Mazeppa Meet this past week there was one fellow who browsed through my portfolio... his question to me was " where's the pictures of the work you do inbetween the outrageous stuff pictured in the book? My answer was that this type of work was ALL we do. Period. Luckily for us we are able to exclusively do this type of work (but it didn't happen over night). It happens to keep me and my crew of three busy for 40 hours each (or more) per week.
That being said, I look forward to the day (in a few more brief years) our second business pays itself off. On that day I will get much more picky about the work we do each day and the projects we sign on to at our sign business... for I WON'T be relying on the income our shop produces any more to live on or make the outrageous payments... the golf will produce enough for us to retire on and live comfortably and in only 100 days each year.
On that day each and every project we do will be good enough quality to appear in SignCraft - I'll happily turn down everything else. (it will be up to the folks at SignCraft as to publish it OR NOT) Best of all, we will be able to do this work on a part time basis. I call it semi-retirement.
But then again, I last "WORKED" back about 30 years ago when I gave up my full-time job to do the same type of projects I currently enjoy. Its the same work I did previous to that as a part time thing after my regular job. To actually get paid for it is a BONUS!
-grampa dan
Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :
Dana, I never expected to go this deep into the subject, but here it is. It is void of any dollar value, recognition, or personal situation a person may have.
In order to run a profitable sign business, I take all of the influences of the trade and apply them to my business. Sure my creative side improves as well as the bottom line. Signcraft is one of those resourses.
Who doesn't want to follow in Dan Anotelli's shoes for creativity, or Bob Behounek's technical application of type and copy?
I relate to them because I know they are completly focused on this trade and thier sign work. They may be waiting tables at Applebee's, but the articles havn't said it, so my perception is in tact.
I cannot relate to someone who uses the trade as a side line. Relate to thier sign work? - Yes. Relate to a total commitment in runnning a sign business? - No.
When I cannot relate to something, I question its influence on my business and change my perspective to Its value.
On the other hand, There may be thousands of part time sign makers who do relate, and found those articles much like thier own situations.
My perspective of this board, is that most everyone here has committed to full time sign work. I realize many do other things to make money. I've been known to plow some snow for some extra coin in my free time.
I can relate to everyone banging out enough signs to be fully committed to it. I can relate to the day to day struggles and triumphs we all face. The reason I'm drawn here is to gain and share effective methods and information and experiences to improve my overall abilities.
So Dana, I ask you. Can you relate?
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
Having one article out of the possible thousands that do relate to you or your business is not bad at all. There are a lot of sign people here that I do not relate to or they to me. But I can appreciate them and thier talents, take what you can get from it and move on. If you get nothing out of it but eye candy, then at least it was something. I guess your only concern would be if the magazine turned into a magazine for part-timers and judging from Signcrafts quality I seriously doubt that would ever happen.
I myself was a full time design employee, part time signmaker, now a full-time business and I have invested a great deal into this business prior to going full time. I have caught crap from former employers, sign hacks, and veteran members of this site for either my "part-time" status or they are clueless as to what I do or have done. I think when you start questioning the status or qualifications of one article out of hundreds of great ones, you might as well question the status of those here too. What or who is worth listening to and how does that relate to my or your business? I think we all have a great deal to learn from each other. I can relate to that......
(edit) ...of course after seeing Ol' Paint I can probably say that I may never relate to that dude...
[ July 13, 2005, 03:10 AM: Message edited by: Rick Chavez ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
I'm gonna reply to this thread any second,but it doesnt quite have enuff responses for me to quote yet...
...i'm definitely gonna reply here in a minute we almost have enuff for a good quote
quote:Mike... please explain why you feel this way... ...I honesly am having a hard time understanding that logic.
well, Mike already replied himself, but I wanted to add that when someone feelssomething... that does not always have to be justified through "logic" I'm stuck in logic too much of the time, so I can attest to the fact that being able to "feel" requires turning that off sometimes.
...I feel that Mikes comment, if spoken at a meet would be followed with a casual... um.. yeeeahhh, I know whhhaatt ya meaannn... um, hey, sling me onedem brewskis... cool, Ya know what I think... I feel like the cover ofdat mag ouughtta been brighter... um.. yeeeahhh!
Posted by Dana Bowers (Member # 780) on :
No, actually, I can't relate. When I was doing nothing but signs, ANY information that someone was willing to share with me was appreciated. I spend countless hours on this board trying to learn. I didn't prerequisite the person to being fulltime, in order to learn from them.
Now I can't be in signs fulltime. (Notice I said CAN'T instead of WON'T.)
I guess that means I am no longer able to contribute anything, that I am worth less to the trade now, even though when I had my shop, I knew ALOT less than I do now.
How can you post something like that, then be surprised when people react to it? You basically said that anyone here that isn't running a sign shop full time, is basically worthless to contribute anything of value to someone that is.
Yeah, ok, um, I thought the cover was already pretty bright, that truck over there really needs new lettering, can someone hand me a diet pepsi?
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
I just opened my latest Sign Craft. I'd be more up in arms about some of the work they are showcasing rather than whether the submitters are full time or part time.
Did you see the first business card?
Somehow I get the feeling Mike values some ones self sign worth on the number of hours one spends doing it during any given week.
So who changed the quality over quantity theory?
[ July 13, 2005, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
I think there are several ways to look at things.
First off, I think SignCraft is doing right by showcasing all of the variables in the sign trade. I think it helps readers get an idea what is possible out there.
For instance ... some folks may be swayed away from doing something they love for fear of not being able to support their families. Showcasing people who are making it work ... in however they make it work, is inspiring.
I suppose that it could be viewed that someone who is running another business, and putting out fine signwork could be considered lucky because they have another source of income, and so they are now doing signwork as a "hobby".
With that logic then, would the same go for those who have a spouse bringing in money? Or those who have investment gains, or who inherited money?
Perhaps another way to look at it would be with admiration that someone can put hours into another business/job, and still have the time and energy to pull off such nice signwork. You know that some sacrifices would have to be made in the family dept. for that to happen. Wow, I can't imagine putting in hours at another job, and THEN attempting the sign trade. Knowing all that goes into that ... gets me tired just thinking about it.
Everyone's scenario is different. We all have percieved advantages and struggles in life. When it's all said and done at the end of the day, it's only in our own lives that we truly know what it takes to reach our rewards.
If you feel that someone who runs a second business has an advantage in this trade, why not try that on for size? Only then can you find out how that works, and if it's really easier.
There are times when I envy what I percieve to be advantages in another person's circumstances. But hey, we do all make choices that affect ours and knowing our options helps us to make the best choices.
In any event, I think that by showing us the various ways signmakers do what they do, SignCraft is doing right by us all.
Nettie
[ July 13, 2005, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: Janette Balogh ]
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
yeah bob...ya mean the stick figure one that says...race signs...i'm pretty good. i saw that and went...well alllllrighty then...i guess i can feel ok about sending my card someday when i get around to it.
Posted by Steve Purcell (Member # 1140) on :
Wwwell! By that logic, if I was the Jolly f'n Green Giant, and I spent half my day makin' purty signs, and the other half counting peas and squishin' smurfs, would that make me unworthy??
The derisive and convoluted mischaracterizations that some have made regarding Mikes topic, amaze, but certainly don't surprize me. Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
I went back & re-read the Mike Lewis profile. What I gleaned from it was that he has been doing signs full-time for something like 18 years. Then, he and his wife bought a dry cleaning business and he cut back to help her with that (which I see as him helping his wife with HER dream), and to spend time with their kids. Does that mean that the day he and his wife bought a dry cleaners is the day he became no longer qualified to be in a magazine? Forget his 20 or so years in the business, his sole income isn't from signs anymore. Gee, guess that disqualifies a lot of people who have a 2 income household.
I feel sorry for people who can't relate to wanting to spend time with their kids (or sick family member, etc.) or to helping someone else (spouse) attain their dreams.
Posted by Stephen Faulkner (Member # 2511) on :
Oh my God!!!!
Michael Boone and George Jefferson??? in the same magazine???
I gotta re-subscribe!!!
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Wow! That would be great, Stephen! Imaginre the theme song, huh? Maybe we'll get all the Letterhead musicians to join in... No, wait, that wouldn't be right, now would it? They got rall full time sign jobs to attend to...
Well, we're movin' on up, To the elitest side... No PT's in my magazines no more Yeah, we're movin' on up To the elitest side... All you non-full timers, there's the door.
Don't you make signs in your kitchen, No tradin' signs for a tab at the bar and grill. Don't work outta your garage or your cellar Cuz' you ain't real sign makers still... That's why I'm up in the big leagues and the rest of you'ns are real slime If you use vinyl and a cutter to make your bread and butter Then your world ain't got a place in mine...
Well, we're movin' on up, To the elitest side... No more part-timers in the magazines... Yeah, we're movin' on up To the elitest side... Cuz' those bastards just lived my dream...
Hahahahahahahahaha! This was meant to be seen in a humorous light. Hell, I'm laughing right now...
Honest. Posted by Stephen Faulkner (Member # 2511) on :
now that right there is funny... I don't who you are!
I SEES THE LIGHT!!!... but me ears are burnin' Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
As for your singing career, Brother Bruce....
...don't quit your day job.
Rapid
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
sling me another onedem brewskis
Posted by John Smith (Member # 1308) on :
Mike, Barry has a point about the "craft" vs "industry". I was featured in Sign Business back in '88. A four page article by Terry Wyke. (I forget what issue) But, it featured me as more of a craftsman than a part-time busnessman. I guess it is just how the article is written and how the reader obsorbs it. I can not begin to tell you how INTIMIDATED I was at my first few LetterHead get-to-gethers !!!! Mainly because I didn't consider myself a "real signmaker". Only a part timer. Ralph Gaither (USN-RET) from Gulf Breeze, FL was at Mike Sheehans meet in Pensacola way back when that gave me my first shot of "self confidence". Then, Ricky Jackson, Vince Balisteria, Mike Facemire, Ken Milar, Dusty Yaxley, John Cox, wow.... the list is ENDLESS of the ones that gave me (and many others) a boost to get to where we are now.... because ALL of them started out doing signs part time, honed their skills and eventually broke away from their "day job" to do signs full time. Still, to this day, I CAN NOT PAINT !!!! LOL And I don't advertise myself as a "painter". But, I can make the design dimensional. My buddy Pat King and I were equally impressed with each others talents in the beginning of our friendship because he could paint it to look dimensional, but couldn't do it.... I could make it dimensional, but couldn't paint it !!! I don't know of too many people that went right from high school or college into a sign shop full time. I, for one, had that full time day job and did signs (cheap signs, too, I might add) as a "hobby" until I broke away from it.
Steve and Barb have done a TREMENDOUS job here in Letterville in providing a "safe haven" to help us all obtain the knowledge and self confidence that one would need to break away from that day job and step into a world of self employment as an artisan.
I guess what I'm trying to say is.... the ARTISAN needs to be recognized for his talents. Whether it be his full time job or not, is not the issue.
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
I like what you just said, John. I always spent my time oil painting slates!!! Then I learned to airbrush. Then I worked in a sign shop for a few months til I got fired for talking bad about the secretary! They thought I wanted to beat her up!
Then I moved up here & worked catching papers off a press, they found I could apply vinyl & hired me, then I worked at a bigger paper, then opened my own shop.
I hope no one here thinks that since I started my whole life by painting slates that i am not qualified or have any business doing signs! Actually, I was very good in Commercial Art doing calligraphy years ago, too.
If we have the talent, the abilties,we should be using it!!!!!
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
I feel fortunate in that I have worked full time in sign shops and on my own since I was in high school. While I have had an assortment of part time jobs to help get over the rough times, I have always been a sign painter as my main means of support.
To His glory and with humble appreciation for everyone who has helped me, I am grateful that I am in the place I am.
Posted by Alfred Toy (Member # 3844) on :
I have a full time job that I can do part time, as a letter carrier I'm done as soon as I can deliver my mail, which means I can do my job in 4 hours instead of eight. Then I can spend my time doing what I enjoy which is making signs. Mind you sometimes I spend six or eight hours a day making signs so I'm not sure which is part time or full time.
Maybe a part of Steves Jobs commencement address posted by Rick Sacks puts it into perspective.
No one wants to die. Even people who want to go to heaven don't want to die to get there. And yet death is the destination we all share. No one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be, because Death is very likely the single best invention of Life. It is Life's change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new. Right now the new is you, but someday not too long from now, you will gradually become the old and be cleared away. Sorry to be so dramatic, but it is quite true.
Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of other's opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.
Posted by Rovelle W. Gratz (Member # 4404) on :
Mike, have you ever considered that it doesn't take him as long to do an excellent job as it does you?
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
Mike,
I think maybe if I were to read between the lines of your posts, your core question arises from the seemingly lack of correlation between creative, and talented artists and their business acumen.
I think that this is something that is more common - a failure on some people to balance the creative energies with the nuts and bolts, and business savvy required to build a successful business.
I took two kids on the way, a wife home on bedrest, and being a sole provider of income and health insurance for my family to really have me turn the corner and redirect a lot of research, and effort into building a business. Of course, coupled with a true desire to be as creative as possible, has afforded me some of my success.
I think maybe we all look up more to people who seem to have both sides under control, but clearly, there's something to be learned from people who are stronger in one aspect than the other. I may admire ones work, and think their businss sense is poor, or vice versa. But clearly, I can still learn something - even if its what NOT to do in business.
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