Hi guys. Been readin' your "threads" for several weeks now. Beginnin' to feel like I grew up with some of y'all.
My dad had a sign business for a 20 years. From the time I can first remember till I was about 14. He managed one after that for several years. That business was closed and the owner started a jewelery store. Sent my dad to jewelers' school. Now my dad's a jeweler. He was one of the best sign painters in the area. Now he's one of the best jewelers. He's just that way.
He used to think, naively, that the sign industry was safe from computers because you couldn't teach a computer how to work a brush . Thought you old-timers would appreciate that.
Anyway, I'm considering starting a sign business from my home. Signs on the side...till it can grow into a full-time occupation (unless I change my mind and do something else). I've worked with my Dad since I was 7. The shop he managed did have two plotters. So, I've got experience with the technology, too.
So...I've read bunches of threads on plotters (I havent purchased one yet). They were very helpful. I've narrowed my choices down pretty good. I decided against the cheapos at Signwarehouse. JSI's own bulletinboard convinced me not to buy their in-house cheapo brand which looks suspiciously similar to Signwarehouse's LYNX.
Currently, I am considering the SummaCut D60 (not the SE--do I need OPOS? I don't have a color printer.). It sounds pretty good and the x-axis problem sounds like you just need to be sure to prefeed the vinyl. I would probably do that anyway, right?
Dave Grundy and Oldpaint nearly had me convinced to get a Roland. I could still be persuaded. No one seems to mention the lastest models of Rolands, which go by CX (not CM). So, I don't know what to make of them. Also, does the CX-24 have rollers to hold the vinyl? None of the pictures on the websites show them if it does.
I could also be persuaded to buy a 30 in. Roland CX-300 ($2795 from Signwarehouse). Or Graphtec's CE3000. Love to hear input on these.
I get the difference (I think) between tangential and drag-blade action, but what's "tangential simulation". How do you simulate tangential action without actually doing the tangential action?
Also. What about vendors? You can get a Roland CX-24 from Signwarehouse for $1495. Wow. Cool. How do they charge so little, though. They seem to have a bad rep around this area. Do you think they might send me a refurb? I cant shake the feeling that they might. Has anyone here had dealings with them? What about JSI? You can get a SummaD60 there for $1950. But what about JSI-Cut software? It's $195 bundled with the plotter. That's cheap...and I wonder if there's a reason for the super low price.
Speaking of cutting software. I own CorelDRAW 12 suite. That's why I am so tempted to get a Roland. However, I am not too pleased with the contour feature (a gazillion nodes--but maybe that's not a real problem). I was thinking of getting CoCut Pro 12, which comes bundled with the SummaD60 at the SummaStore (SummaDirect, SummaUSA...whatever) for less than $500. It seemed to have some useful features not found in Corel. Anyone have and like CoCut? I am particularly interested in its contour feature and that feature where it sections the design due to vinyl size constraints. When it automatically sections does it include (automatically) a slight overlap of the sections, because I would want to have an overlap. I can section easily enough in CorelDraw, but am concerned about the effort to produce a slight overlap. I bet Dave Grundy can do that overlap thing with his eyes shut. Love to hear from him on the topic.
Has anyone bought the Mike Stevens font CD from Signwarehouse? I love all Mike Stevens fonts. They're worth the $200, but only if they kern well and convert to curves well. Otherwise, they wouldnt be worth 15 cents.
Now remember, y'all might answer these questions and I might decide not to start the business after all. Wouldn't want anyone to think they wasted their time. I know yall get a "which plotter to buy" question once every 3 seconds on this board. Hate to ask it again, but couldn't find the exact answers I was looking for in the threads I read (Learned bunches of good stuff, tho.)
Thanks to all who respond.
[ September 01, 2004, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: William Bass ]
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
William,
Our shop has two Allen Datagraph 830 GT cutters. We were so impressed with the first one we bought a second and now the first one is wrapped up and sitting on the shelf as a back up cutter.
I think you should really consider, whatever brand you buy, the 30 inch cutters. I realize it is a bit more moey up front but the extra six inches do come in handy often enought to warrant the extra dough.
I won't open the software can of worms. I don't cut out of Corel. I have one of those ultra extra feaure laden sign software programs. I actually have three but we won't talk about the second one... It is still a sore subject... LOL!
The Mike Steven fonts from Sign DNA are OK. They do have a bunch of nodes when converted to curves. Otherwise, they work well.
If you have any q's... feel free to call or write.
Posted by Michael Boone (Member # 308) on :
Hi Bill Welcome! I own a summa t750.. never saw the other summa's Opus can be added later.. I use Vinyl Master Pro software I'm very happy with both. Vinyl Master comes with over 5000 fonts The fonts alone are worth the purchase price
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
First, if you decide to do this, charge correctly. Don't lowball just because your overhead is lower.
I have the Roland CX-24 and love it. I don't know, but I believe the CX is pretty much the same as the CM but newer, a few modifications and the control panel looks different. It is friction with adjustable rollers.
I cut straight out of Corel. Ended up having to uninstall and reinstall Corel after the CoCut trial went totally haywire so I'm not the one to ask about CoCut. Some swear by it, I swore at it.
As for SignWarehouse...again some swear by them, I swore at them. My first cutter was one of their Lynx models. One of the happiest days of my life was the day it left.
The price you saw for the CX-24 is about the norm. But, why don't you try Rayco or one of the merchants here? Remember, they (along with the residents) help to pay for this place and if it wasn't for them & the residents, this place wouldn't exist and you wouldn't be getting these answers.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Couple of things:
Summa D60 X axis error problem - - why would you want to buy a plotter that is supposed to automate the vinyl feeding, and then manually "pre-feed" it?! If you're going to buy new, buy something that does what it is supposed to reliably without babysitting it. Sounds like you read my earlier "Summa" rantings....if it's between the Summa D60 and the Roland CX....get the Roland.
I have the Summa D750 (30inch) non-tangential and it works well for the most part....two motors vs the one motor in the D60. Buying tangential after the fact requires you to send the complete plotter in to Summa. Not sure if that's true about "Opus". If you're not doing digital now...don't get it. As mentioned above, you can get it later.
User interface on Summa's are aweful.
Kissy gives good advice above. I had a desktop Roland 24 inch before the Summa...and it was pretty much bulletproof and very easy to run...in fact, a head here bought it and I think it's still working troublefree for him. Been times when I wanted it back!
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
I'm gonna check into Allen Datagraph per Bruce's suggestion, but you guys have bout cured me of Summa fever...got that idea cuz of a positive write-up in Signcraft (or similar mag).
Also, I thought I read in one of the countless "Which Plotter Do I Buy?" threads that someone had to prefeed their Roland...so I figured...if I gotta prefeed anyway...well...
But I hate babysittin' machines. Would rather be weedin'.
Looks like its between Roland CX-24, Roland CX-300, or the AllenDatagraph 830 GT.
The LYNX, PANTHER, & BOBCAT...no way...I almost bought one...so cheap...such great features...glad I found this site.
But the Roland CX-24...So, it has rollers to hold the roll of vinyl? I'm not sure if those are the rollers Kissy is talkin' about or not.
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
I'm not sure which rollers you mean, but yes the CX-24 has them. There are adjustable pinch rollers that hold the vinyl down and mine came with a roller to hold the vinyl roll at the back of the cutter. Ask about it when you order.
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
William, I did'n unnerstan' a sangle werd you said 'cept "y'all" . . . . . basically, I am computer-challenged and southern-fried . . . .
ANYWAY! WELCOME from one Southerner to anuther . . . . This place rocks as you have discovered . . . .YEE-HAW!!!!
~~~~~wastin' time again here-in-Letterville~~~ ~~~~~searchin' for my lost can of one-shot~~~ ~~~~~some people claim that there's a computer blame~~~~~~
~~~~but I know~~~~it's my own dang fault~~~~~~~~~
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Sheila... that's two funnies in a row. You have got to stop!
LOL!
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Hi William...Welcome to Letterville.
Yep, doing the "paneling/tiling" thing, with the overlap is not a problem.
You have obviously done a lot of research about plotters, so I'd say..just do what you think is best.
As far as all the gazillion nodes that happen with contours in Corel...My cutter doesn't slow down at all because of them. All plotters will cut really fast on straight lines and then slow down on the curved lines.
Good luck with whichever cutter you decide to buy. Posted by Michael Berry (Member # 2604) on :
William,
Look into a Graphtec. They are sponsors of the board. I have a 24" CE1000-60 that I don't think they even make anymore. I have had ZERO problems with it, I would not hesitate to buy another Graphtec for a second.
I cut from Gerber Omega.
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Signcraft (a merchant here) has the mike stevens font cd too.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
ROLAND CX-24, CM-24 is a low end item from roland so you can cut vinyl. they all look the same on the outside but its wahts inside that makes the differance. the CX/CM-300,400 are higher priced the the CX/CM-24 for a lot of reasons. all the 300,400 machines will have a downforce of 300 or 400 so it can cut heavier material. also all the rolling areas on these machines are steel ballbearings. these are built to last longer and work harder. all CM/CX-24 machines are nylon bearings at rolling points and will only provide a downforce of 200 grams. now these dont make for a lot of differance in the short term, but in the long run the CX-300, 400 is you better choice if you are gona stay in the business....i live in pcola, and can tell you there are a lot more doin signs then the phone book shows......
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
That's the difference. I kept reading yer posts about nylon and steel bearings...didn't know which models you were referring to. Got it now.
Lots o sign guys? Yeah...I believe it...an' there's a lot in the phone book...an SOME of the guys do AWESOME work. I DONT do the AWESOME thing, just cant. I can do the "That looks nice" thing. I don't do Brush Script in all caps .
Some days I wake up n say...I'm gonna do this...other days I say...no I better not. The hassle of gettin customers and makin' fresh designs EVERYDAY...(or at least you hope its everyday, right?) kinda makes me tired, but Hardees is making me hurt. I'll have to do somethin' and this is ONE idea Im giving serious consideration. (Another is to ignore the warnings about liver damage on the Tylenol bottle .)
Joe, I live jus' a mile from you. If that's your vertical "SIGNS" sign on Longleaf. You probably drive by Slash Pine every day. Off Blue Angel between Pine Forest and Blue Angel.
Thanks for the dose of reality.
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
Camm-1 here, great but it needs babysitting!
Welcome aboard William
Posted by Jim Doggett (Member # 1409) on :
Greetings all!
Sorry for being late to the show ... busy week. To hear our cutters compared to Roland in any way other than "there is no comparison!" has my gut doing back flips.
But, I'll admit the X-axis Error, particularly in the case of the SummaCut D60, is giving us a black eye. And it shouldn't! The error protects the motors when voltage to them goes over certain limits for a sustained period. And when operated correctly, you won't get the error.
What causes X-axis Errors (read: excess drag on the media)
1. When on a tabletop, the media rollers are spread too wide. The roll (or tips of the roll-flanges) can then rub against the table.
2. When a full roll is loaded, and the media rollers are too close together. The roll or flanges can then rub on the back of the machine.
3. Auto-load is turned off. (Never turn it off!)
4. After auto loading occurs, the slack is manually wound back onto the roll (some people do this)
These issues are less apparent on our SummaSign Pro cutters because the media rollers are set further back. Also, they're rarely used in a desktop configuration.
The error is there to protect the motors, working from the precept that it's better to lose some vinyl than a motor (OK; easy for us to say since it's not our vinyl).
In an effort to save motors and vinyl, our newer firmware has an improved way of handling media that's experiencing excess drag (Rev 8, or newer, I think. The latest is Rev 12 ... call 800.323.9766 and ask one of our tech folks to walk you through where to download and how to install the new firmware). What we've done is modify how the error is handled by the machine. Rather than immediately erring out, it continues to send short bursts to the motors to work past overload issues that are not excessive to an extent that could do real damage. Only if there's a serious drag/resistance issue, will it error out.
With little effort, the error can be avoided entirely. And manual pre-feeding simply isn't needed, ever. Then you can enjoy the many benefits of a Summa cutter, not least of which is the fact that it tracks circles around every other cutter mentioned in this thread. And in vinyl cutting, tracking is the Holy Grail.
Thanks,
Jim
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
yep thats my sign, ive go past there evey now and then. on blue angle the SPRINKLERS AND LANDSCAPING is my work. most of it is paint......
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
WEll jim You are proud that the Summa cutters track really good. My 24" Anagraph cuts great and tracks well too. But its small. Do you have a cutter that I could test drive? Cuz I'm certainly goona test drive the next one I purchase.
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
Ive had a Summa D-60 for some time now, with absolutely no problem. If I buy again, I will buy Summa, but I dont forsee buying anytime soon, as my Summa cuts every day flawlessly. And what Jim says about the tracking is true. It too is flawless.I also like the interface. A friend of mine near here bought one right after I did, and he has had no problems either. All brands have a problem from time to time. Summa and Graphtec and Roland are merchants here. Im sure the other brands mentioned are also good as stated. Good luck in your purchase.
[ September 02, 2004, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: John Deaton III ]
Posted by Mark Casey (Member # 650) on :
I've had an Allen Datagraph 830 plus for several years. A real workhorse, but it needs babysitting (no tractor feed). I love the pounce option - use it regularly.
Good luck.
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
I was going to walk away from this thread, but I just had to add this. I just finished cutting 20+ feet of vinyl, from beginning to end, the roll moved less than 1/32" (width of the guide line). It was set up into about 4 chunks & I only sent 1 at a time. After each one, I'd look to see if it moved (I hate punched material) & send the next one. I think 1/32" in 20 feet is pretty good. Especially when it was punched material (which wasn't totally punched & thus left little vinyl & paper circles everywhere, including on the rollers) and I only pre-fed about 12" to check my lineup at the beginning. The rest, it pulled off the roll.
Everyone keeps talking about tracking. Yes, it's important, but be realistic. Is the amount of times you need to cut 20' of 1 color at once going to warrant the amount of money you'd spend to buy a machine that swears it will always do that compared to the thousands saved in buying a machine that is capable of doing that when necessary but takes an extra 5 seconds to load to do those long runs?
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
I really dont do alot of long tracks on my summa Kissy,but its good to know I can walk away from it if I have to. As far as pre feeding, I put the roll in the spools, sit it on the wheels, put about two inches of vinyl through, lock down the arm, and let it go. The machine feeds through material and then starts cutting. Barely does take 5 seconds. No doubt Roland is a good machine too, but we never see anybody on here from Roland answering any questions. Jim and Howard are on here at various times offering up help and information on their products. I bought my Summa because of favorable responses from people on this board and what I read in the trades.
Posted by Jim Doggett (Member # 1409) on :
Hi Curtis,
I'm not sure of the best way to see a demo of our cutters. Calling our sales folks at 800.527.7778 might yield a location near you. Also, our tradeshow schedule can be found here: http://www.summausa.com/events.php. Thanks!
Hi John,
JD!!! Many thanks for your kind words. It sounds as if you been plugging Summa around Harlan. Now Letterville too! Summa thanks you, I thank you, and my kids, 2 ex-wives, ... (kidding; I am truly grateful) Please let me return the favor some time.
Hi Chris,
I agree that 1 thirty-second of an inch is good on a 20-foot plot. But, not exceptional. We aim for (and guarantee) exceptional tracking. John's SummaCut D60 has guaranteed repeatable cutting up to 26 feet long, within a margin of error that's 4 one-thousandths of an inch -- or less.
I further agree that tracking is important. I'd add, “way” important. Cutting accuracy depends on it, which in turn affects ease-of-weeding. But hey, no need to go on and on. Everyone here understands the relative value of good/better/best/exceptional tracking.
Moreover, many here (and elsewhere) speak of using their cutters for many years. Not even adding up all the 5-minutes’es, factor in ease-of-weeding, no baby-sitting, multi-color jobs matching spot-on, etc., etc. -- over a period of years! I'd like to think that the few hundred more people pay for Summa cutters is not merely worth it, but genuinely representative of the principle that “it only costs a few pennies more to go with the very best.”
Thanks again all,
Jim
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
I can't think of a more customer oriented individual than Jim Doggett. And he helped me out when I was frustrated with my D60.....
but, the error on X axis I constantly got wasn't with a desktop model....it was on a Summa stand. And I tried every conceivable adjustment; rollers close, rollers wide, rollers every notch available. Auto load always on, and never "pre-fed" the material myself.
Now, the motors are probably the same motors that many manufacturers use....but in any event...I think they are too whimpy in the D60.
I just don't believe based on my experiences with 2 units that they can handle a full roll of vinyl....and in my case, they would even error out on 10 yd rolls and smaller.
It took the 2 motor system of the Summa D750 to satisfy me. I haven't had the problem on this unit.
John...I'm glad you have had good luck and hope it continues.
I haven't heard anyone in here complaining about motor related errors and crashes on other equipment. My buddies Gerber plotters (1 friction and one pin) are built like tanks. I swear they could pull a 200 lb man right on through if he got his hand stuck under a pinch roller.
Posted by Jake Lyman (Member # 3280) on :
We have an Allen Data Graph 30" plotter here it is the 830 plus "gold touch". we have had it for 4 years now with absolutely no problems. If I were to buy another one I would have one of those in a second wouldn't even consider anything else for straight cutting ( well mabye a different sized Allen )
JAKE
Posted by Howard Keiper (Member # 1250) on :
Graphtec's cut well, track well, last a long, long time, cost a bundle and are worth every cent. Buy one...you'll be glad you did. hk
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
Sprinklers and Landscaping, Joe---that's a real nice sign.
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
Whats a Camm-1--thats the CM-24, right?
Also, I used to sub cutting to local sign guys. One guy used the CM-24, it cut real clean (I was very impressed). He cut my eps file in FlexiSign.
Another guy used a new-looking CM-300 (400, maybe), and it ended each letter slightly off of where it started. I had to "knife" most letters. Any thoughts on that from Roland owners? He cut my eps from Corel.
[ September 02, 2004, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: William Bass ]
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
Our Camm-1 is an old noisy slowish but very reliable Roland PNC-1000A,but with the ability to only handle 3different pinch roller positions up to 20". It's not the CM or CX-24 which would be nice!
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Ian...Just a suggestion for your consideration. I had a PNC 1000 and it worked great for me for several years. When I had an opportunity to get my hands on a CM 24 I jumped at the chance. I kept the 1000 for about a year, as a backup, before selling it.
I now regret selling it, not because the CM 24 has caused any problems, but because the 1000 had enough pinch roller pressure and blade downforce to cut heavier materiasls like bast resist. The CM just doesn't have the same pressure. It won't cut sandblast resist reliably.
If you do have the opportunity to get a CM or CX, be sure to keep the 1000A for those situations where it might be needed.
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
Not only what you purchase, but from whom you purchase is important. After sales support,service and availability are part of what gets forfeited with the discount prices.
I've found great satisfaction from my dealings with JSI and find Graphtec extremely dependable and a real stand-up company to deal with.
Posted by TransLab (Member # 470) on :
I agree with Howard, the Graphtec has been a great machine. Buy wider than you think you need, every now & then a job comes up that makes me glad I bought the 48" model. I'd hate to turn down or compromise on a job simply because I scrimped on a tool. I'm running my Graphtec direct from coreldraw, by choice. I own both SignLab & Flexi software. We also use Corel/Graphtec to contour cut decals printed on either HP wide format inkjet, or Matan Spark thermal printer. I owned a 24" Roland for about 6 years and it was a good machine, problem free, but it doesn't hold a candle to the Graphtec in terms of productivity, tracking, features or range of materials I can cut.
[ September 03, 2004, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: TransLab ]
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
What kind of Graphtec do you have, Mike. The CE series or the more expensive pro version? You cut from corel with no problems? I am somewhat interested in the Graphtec CE3000. But I am leaning heavily toward the CX-24 or possibly the CX-300 (not sure if I want that kind of debt load tho.)
Many thanks to all who have responded thus far.
Posted by TransLab (Member # 470) on :
I've got the FC4100-130 pro.
I guess the determining factor in purchasing a machine is to determine how busy it will be.
A busy machine doesn't cost money, it earns it.
Cutting from corel is no problem, it's all about how comfortable you are with any given software. We have a lot of processes here, from desktop publishing & printing, wide format printing, thermal printing, engraving, to vinyl cutting; It's important to us that any design file be able to be used with any device, corel is the common thread and works well in our work environment.
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
I'm not sure how busy mine will be at first. I dont have an established business. I will be working from my bedroom. I hope to do mostly Vans/Trucks, Banners, Windows, & Yard Signs with the plotter. I may try to do business cards and letterhead as well (printing subbed out of course, but I have experience with setting up files for printing). This will all be financed with credit cards and supported with a part-time $6.25/hr job ($700/mo approx) plus gas, insurance, etc. I've already bought the $2000 computer. I could cut my losses now (lol) and just enjoy the computer.
I have no interest in installing signs as here in my county you have to be a licensed contractor to install even 4X8's (which I think is stupid of course--getting this stupid law changed might be worthwhile effort). I can manufacture any kind of sign, but am limited in what I can install (the customer can install their own as long as it meets code...whatever ). It is possible that some installations could be subbed out, but as far as Im concerned, I feel blocked out of the ID sign market, pretty much.
Posted by TransLab (Member # 470) on :
Under that situation, I think I'd settle for a used machine, you can get a used 24" roland for 1000-1200 , maybe less. Once you get established you can always sell it and get something bigger, better, faster should you see that you need it.
If you're comfortable with Corel (and since you already own it), cut direct; if that doesn't work for you, you can add co-cut or other bridge software later if you feel you need it. Don't compromise on materials.
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
Todd, my D60 handles 50 yard rolls as easy as it handles 10 yard rolls. No doubt you had a bad time with yours, but I dont think you should continually bad mouth them. There are alot of very satisfied customers out there. I dont need luck with my Summa. Luck has nothing to do with it. I really do alot of research on products before I buy, and it came down to 2 choices. Summa and Graphtec. I decided for the Summa and Im glad I did. I have another friend who runs a print shop that bought a Roland several years ago and had alot of problems with it. Still, they sell the crap out of them to very satisfied customers. Cutters are like cars. One bad apple dont spoil the whole bunch.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
you really need to check into how many sign makers there are in this town.....and the money they are making. i used to do the lettering on the walls of 5 FLAGS for $4 sq.ft. they got some guy doin it for $2!!!!!!! the SIGN & PRINT on palofox does 18x24 yard signs for $10!!!! and 2x6 banners for $25!!!!! you want to invest big dollars to compete with this? i moved here in 98 from sarasota and found out where the economy is real quick. i set up a shop on mobile hwy and in 20 months i couldnt pay the rent. seems like everybody in pcola has a vinyl cutter or knows someone who does it on the side.......market is shrinking....with every new plotter bought. with a stock car track here you would think makin signs would be good money...welll most who have a cutter are doin the stock cars for FREE...as sponsors!!! my last plotter i bought came from a HOOTERS CUP stock car driver!!!!! as someone who has been in this business a long time, i would suggest you get a job at a sign place, for a while...see how you would like doin this everyday, and it would be a better job then hardees....i get calls from people lookin for work, i sometimes dont have enough to keep myself busy.
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
You're probably right Joe. I've been thinking about it a while. I got a little extra excited when I first posted my post, but I'm still very unsure.
I appreciate the reality check.
Still...part of the decision is which plotter should I buy...is an inexpensive model okay (CX-24 sounds okay and its fairly reasonable).
And it wouldn't hurt maybe to slowly build a clientelle of faithful customers.
The ones I had before liked my prices and my work. Its just that it was my sole source of income and I am not an aggressive salesy kind of guy.
It's not an easy decision. I'll tell you that. I know its not easy money.
I always feel wrong to get a job knowing I might intend to later become their competitor. That's just me. However, that is very sound advice.
All you guys have given good advice.
Posted by Roy Frisby (Member # 736) on :
I think I would try jewelers' school! Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
John,
Not bad mouthing Summa. "Bad mouthing" people involves a measure of gossip, envy, jealousy, or some other evil intent for the sole purpose of hurting someone's reputation. It can also be a motive of revenge for being wronged, but in any event...it consists of spreading untruths to a degree.
Jim Doggett is an honest man, and has stated above that the D60's error on X axis has given Summa a "black eye".
Please CAREFULLY re-read all my posts which deal with my Summa experiences....you will find that I not only had 1....but 2 consecutive problem D60's.
You will also note that I praise Summa's tech support staff and laude Jim Doggett for taking care of the problem.
You will also note that while I don't care for the LCD user interface design of the replacement D750....I do state that this unit has been VERY reliable and a good cutter.
I'm not painting all Summa product in an ill light...just the my experiences with the D60. And, honestly, if I did it over again...I'd probably get a Roland or a Graphtec...probably Graphtec.
When people ask for recommendations on a cutter, they want to know the good, the bad, and the otherwise of people's experiences with the products they own. Would it be beneficial to give people false-positive reviews on products they have encountered problems with? I think not.
I'm glad your research brought you to buy a Summa D60. And I'm glad it's been working for you. The 2 I had, didn't.
I'm sorry if you feel belittled because of my review. It must be like the age old Chevy VS Ford sensitivities syndrome.
Edit: PS.....why is "word of mouth" a good thing when it brings business to your door....but treasonous in the reverse? Newbies want honest opinions, not patronizing fluff.
[ September 03, 2004, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
The Allen Datagraph looks like a little-known wonder. I havent gotten a price on one yet, and I'm betting its out of my range right now. If I had the money, I'd probably get the Summa T series or the Graphtec Pro whatchamacallit. Those sound like the best. However, on my limited funds, I'll have to stay with the lower priced plotters.
The Summa D60 still looks attractive, but I have found Todd's comments most helpful. John's positive experiences and Todd's negative experiences are both valuable input for me.
I am leaning most heavily towards the Roland CX-24 or CX-300 (Rolandheads Joe, Kissy, and Dave are very convincing) after hearing all the posts.
All posts have been valuable, and I thank everyone that replied.
I see this is a very passionate topic. I found oodles of old threads, but none addressed my particular concerns. You guys have done that in this thread.
I also see why Bruce wouldn't open up the software can of worms.
Thank you very much to all who have responded.
Frisby's advice to go to Jeweler's School and Joe's warnings about the Sign Climate in Pensacola are probably the posts I should pay attention to. Stubborn as I am, I probably won't, tho. Yes, I appreciated those comments, too.
I think all you letterville guys are really cool.
[ September 03, 2004, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: William Bass ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
there is another guy here in pcola i ran across when i 1st got here. i was in painters supply buying one shot. this guy starts talik to me about signs. after a few minutes he tells me he is a SIGN BROKER...well i aint never heard of one of these....so i axed him what that was. he tells me he goes out and gets jobs then comes to a sign shop and sees who can give him the best price on doin the sign, and that him and i should do some work together. i asked him if he painted, he said oh heck no i cant do anything like that. i axed if he had a plotter, he said heck no...i get the jobs, and you guys can bid on doin my vinyl for the sign and puttin it on then i take the sign and get paid....hummmmmm so he said we can do some jobs???? i told him HE CANT AFFORD ME!!!! he was tryin to make all the money on the sign and pay me 15% percent for doin all the work. told him he got it a little backwards....i pay "bird-dogers" 10% of the price of what i MAKE THE SIGNS FOR.... he hasnt ever called me.......hehehehe
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
OP, a minute ago you said "i get calls from people lookin for work, i sometimes dont have enough to keep myself busy." & now you talk about runnin' off this "bird-dogger" I'm just wondering how you know he can't afford you. A lot of people are paying a lot higher prices then what you mention happening down there... maybe this guy travels a litle further out then you, or maybe specializing as a sign broker, he just might be a professional who is as good at what he does as you are at what you do. I've had people want to do that type of sales work for me, & the hardest part is that we don't just sell widgets... small medium & large widgets, priced right off a price sheet, so it requires the broker to gather the specs on a job & then ask me for a quote. Then he takes my numbers back & I could care less how much he makes if I get my price. You say he only wanted to pay you 15% for doing all the work... how often do we all rant about the loser clients & the crazy negotiations we all waste too much time on... A guy finding work for you would be a service worth paying for if you can move directly into production without hours or days of selling, drawing, approving yada yada yada
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
You make a good point(s) Doug....people often don't put a value on their sales time...which, although necessary, takes time away from production hours in a one man shop.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
doug, this guy was not a so called professional. you need to reread, he also would go from one sign shop to another and get one price and then go to another one and tell him so and so can do it for this little....you wana deal with that ok by me.. i dont.
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
I think I did work for this guy ONCE, Joe. Cant remember his name, but I was hurting for cash.
There is one guy in town that makes every sign shop owner's eyes roll, but I cant remember his name. He's got biz card stuck on the board at the PAINT MART. He's a slick guy. If I can, I will NEVER work for the guy again.
Yeah. He's not a professional. However, Doug is correct in saying that as long as I get MY price...that's fine.
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
Didnt really mean anything by that Todd. Just thought you were coming down a little hard on them. Sorry if I seemed harsh. Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
John,
I may have come down a bit hard on Summa...I'm probably the first to raise cane if I feel a product gives me problems, but I'm also the type to take the time to write a complimentary letter to people's supervisors when I have gotten good service somewhere, and I brag up a product that delivers on it's promise to everyone that will listen.
I should state again for the record, that my Summa D750 is a very good, high quality machine...and although I don't like the lcd interface....it works like a charm and I would recommend that unit as one to seriously research if you're going to buy a new one.
Summa techies and support are among the best I've ever dealt with...they really work with you and don't leave you hanging. This in itself is a real plus. I purchased my unit directly from Summa...and I'd recommend that route to anyone. You may pay a bit more, but you deal directly with the company.
I'm glad to hear that they have worked out some of the error on x axis bugs...per Jim's post.
And you're right to point out John that everybody has a percentage of units that have a problem or two...nobody is perfect.
Rock on with that Summa!
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
well iam 3 for 3...ive had 3 rolands since 1993, still have 2 and only thing ive ever done is replace blades, and couple of the cut strips...and the pnc-1000 i sold it for $550 last summer. as far as i know its still goin...goin goin.....if i had money for NEW outa the box, id do roland cm-300, or 400. graphtecs are nice.....and i would look ata suma...
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
3 Rolands in 11 years for a guy who does $20. coroplast signage, my God Joe how many brushes have ya replaced? Now if ya would have kept that old Mopar ya had when you were young, ya probably could have bought a Gerber back then and it would have done ya for next next 11 years Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
well i had a chance to buy a GOOBER when i bought the 1st roland....but i was smarter then to get caught up in that ...........and the reason i got 3 is UPGRADE...i now have 2 24" cutters....and a hell of a lot quicker then a goober...
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
. Thought you old-timers would appreciate that.![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
There are adjustable pinch rollers that hold the vinyl down and mine came with a roller to hold the vinyl roll at the back of the cutter. Ask about it when you order.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
.![[Applause]](graemlins/applause.gif)