Just got back from Detroit after having a meeting with Kevin and the others on the committee. First off, Kevin wants me to express his regret on not being able to get back with those that have tried to contact him before this. I will be in charge of communications and will try to get every new detail posted as soon as I know.
We had the meeting at the Masonic Temple where Kevin gave us a tour of the facilities that we will be using. We then sat for lunch and worked on details. We will be meeting again May 8th and every 2-3 weeks after that - until the meet. I will be discussing more later.
Many big names have comfirmed that they are coming as have many vendors. There will be a huge room where easels will be set up along with vendors and their displays. That room will have plenty of room to paint, sit and relax and wander around and talk. There will be a separate room for those that want to do or learn to gold leaf and glass gild.
The Masonic Temple will have someone doing a backdrop presentation. If you don't know, the Masonic Temple also has a theater. The backdrops that will be shown will be those used all the way back to 1928. Today when we were there, THE LION KING was going on and we had to fight crowds in many halls. August is a very slow time for the Temple so it sounds like will will have it much to ourselves...except for a wedding or whatever. We will not be limited to certain rooms. There will be tours guides available.
Across from the entrance to the temple is a small park where the city will be having an open air art show by professional artists.
Some of the panels that are being donated will be custom spray painted with automotive colors...metallics, pearls, marbles, candies, etc. One of the committees daughters has volunteered to do this.
Camping will be available in a parking lot close by. There will be crash rooms where people can bring a blowup mattress or cots and crash for a few hours or even sleep every night. Showers are available close by. Hotels will be available in Detroit along with others within 10-20 minutes that will be available at a cheaper rate. If you need to pinch pennies or just want to share a room, we will also have room signup sheet where you can share a room with other Letterheads.
Mack Brush will be there and I believe someone from the company will be showing how they make brushes.
One Shot is making a very generous donations of supplies, along with others vendors that we don't have a complete list of yet.
We don't know how many murals will be done yet. I know that there are 2 huge pillars the the temple memebers would like something done to them. I had to edit this paragraph because I didn't have complete story on some of the rooms that have gold leaf in them. I just talked with Keniv and he told me that some Masonic memebers will be taking us on tours of the temple and we will be able to see this room with all the gold leaf. Anyway that you look at it, the temple is one beautiful place to see to go and admire the craftsmanship that went into building this building. I will be adding links to the bottom of this post so that you can get glimpses of artwork in the Temple.
Many areas like security, parking and transportation are already taken care of. We may need some of you to donate some signage like Mike Meyers has already done.
Cost for the meet is $189.90. That covers getting into the meet, lunch and dinner buffet meals on Thur, 3 buffet meals on Fri, Breakfast (eggs, ham, juice, etc) and lunch buffet on Sat and then a fancy sitdown, catered meal is planned for Sat. night and then Sun will be a breakfast buffet. As far as signup, we are going to try something a little different in hopes that we might be able to make it a little easier financially on some. Kevin will be getting a signup sheet up on the net. This year you can send all at once or $50 deposit and payments. The $50 will be non-refundable if you can't make it. We are trying to make it a little easier for some of the newbies (or others)that want to attend but don't have that kinda money all at once. Wwe would hope that you could pay off the cost by Aug. 1st but if not, you can pay the remainder at the door.
We will be having Seminars, demonstrations, and much more. Bill Betz and Noel Weber (one of thee orginial 7 letterheads) will be doing Goldleaf seminars. Some others we plan on pulling off are glue chipping, paint, wood varnishes, sub-strates, neon, airbrushing, showcards, layout and design.
If you have any questions, you can email Kevin or myself (laura560@usol.com). I can probably get back with you sooner but may not know your answer right away. We hope to put on a Letterhead meet that people will talk about for years. Detroit has a lot to offer with Detroit Institute of Art close by, casino gambling for those that want to indulge, Eastern Market, and many other cultural food establishments.
[ May 06, 2004, 07:51 AM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
Posted by Kent Smith (Member # 251) on :
Glad he has some help as we have been worried. Looking forward to more details.
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
...Thank you for the update Laura. ...I'm getting excited. (?)
... Is the host Kevin web savvy? And if so, does he read this site? Is he lurking?
...If he's not already here, maybe now would be a good time for him to sign up and "pitch in"... And help drum up some excitement for (his meet) this years "Letterhead INTERNATIONAL".
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
Don't count on Kevin getting on the web to drum up excitment. He just doesn't have the time. He has been going day and night for months. Now that we have had our meeting on Sat. and have delegated/volunteered each position that needed to be filled, he can spend more time on making those connections that only Kevin can.
The job of communications cordinator is up to me now. If anyone has any concerns or advice, please send them to me. 810-664-3812 or laura560@usol.com
[ April 25, 2004, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
Posted by dave parr (Member # 3868) on :
Thanks for the update Laura. Sounds like this could be a pretty nice meet. I've been wanting to put this meet on the calender. I'm quite interested so far. It would probably be pretty tough to miss this one.
Looking forward to more information.
Posted by Brian O'Prey (Member # 4063) on :
Could you be any more vague? Where are the details, who are the big names, and there's not much time in the greater scheme of things. And what are memebers? And who is Keniv?
Posted by John Grenier (Member # 3816) on :
This is very interesting. Is this the Masonic Temple on, well Temple, between Cass and Second? That is where we had our graduation ceremony from Cass Tech (class of 70). Just accros the park is the High School. The bit about camping is also very interesting, do you mean in Cass Park? If thats true then things have certainly changed lately. I gotta go to this one. I wonder if the commercial art department from the high school would be interested in knowing about it.
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
Brian, Sorry to seem so vague. I'll probably have more details later this week. Kevin Betz is the one putting this on. Wild Bill Betz is his dad and also my mentor. Steve Shortreed said he is one of the best goldleafers around.
John, this is the same Masonic Temple...the one on Second and Temple. What did you think of the decor then? Do you remember how beautiful it is? I'll get more info on where the camping will be.
If everyone would tell me what they are waiting to heard about (besides the hotels and camping) I'll try to get answers right away.
[ April 26, 2004, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
Posted by kc (Member # 650) on :
John,
I don't know what Cass Park was like in the 70's, but the City of Detroit is setting up the "Art in the Park" event to help put on a nice face for Letterheads and spark more interest in the area. Cass Avenue near Wayne State has experienced in incredible turnaround with many of those cool old buildings being renovated and it all started with an "artists' haven" atmosphere. Detroit is full of Art Deco era skyscrapers, warehouses and office buildings. Very cool architecture with detailed interiors.
"Camping" would be in the crash room or the fenced-in asphalt parking lot.
Thanks for the tip about the Cass Tech commercial art department. Charles Strong ran the nationally known Detroit School of Lettering somwhere around here in the 20's.
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
Mark, Here is a link of pictures to show everyone the room with the columns that the Masons want to have us do something with. Didn't Kevin say that htis will be the room that we will have our Sat sit down dinner in?
Laura, Just curious: how did Kevin come up with $189.90 ??? Does that include a t-shirt?
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
Got a little more info.
Ken Millar will be doing a seminar on Layout & Design.
Sonny, T-shirts are included.
[ May 04, 2004, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
Is this the same Laura Butler who was complaining last year about how "expensive" the LetterRip meet was at $115 each or $150 for a family? Posted by Kent Smith (Member # 251) on :
I have promised Kevin some time ago to be there to do a seminar on paints so Judi and I will be there and expect to see many of our best friends there as well. Remember that a meet is a reflection of the attendees as much as anything. Anyone who was in Kansas City in '83 should consider this one, just because.
Jane...as you may know sometimes it takes being involved in hosting to come to grips with the economic realities.
I hope everyone takes a look at the Temple as an incentive to go. We were fortunate enough to have tours of the Temple in Philadelphia a few years ago when the Society of Gilders were there. All Masonic Temples are such a fine example of the extent of the gilder's art that the meet will be worth it for that alone.
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
THAT was my point, Kent! It was rather upsetting at the time to have Laura "dismiss" our meet because of the cost!! You do the best you can when hosting a large event. You try to keep the cost down. YOU know that there are a lot of cost involved in a large meet that the average attendee doesn't probably realize until they get involved...building rentals, food & drink, t-shirts are obvious but what about scaffold, tarps, clean up supplies, porta potties, tables & chairs, tents, building all the easles, etc. NOT COUNTING all the hours involved in planning that you aren't producing a living and all the phone calls and trips to prepare for the meet! But to complain about the cost when you have no idea what's involved....I took exception to at the time. I don't think anyone who hosts an event does it to "make money!" We do it for the right reasons. We WANT to do it! I feel great having been part of all the meets we have helped host and definately have a greater appreciation for those who take on the task of hosting a meet!! Just thought I would point out that I didn't appreciate Laura's negative comments last year. That's all. Hope the meet in Detroit is a hugh success! Posted by Kent Smith (Member # 251) on :
Exactly. I thought you would elaborate because the complete story is more important than what appears at first blush to be a singular gripe. Also, Laura is only one of a committee of many.
Anyway, our reason for attending goes back to '83 as many will know but every meet has something worthwhile so I encourage others to consider it.
Posted by BrianTheBrush (Member # 1298) on :
Laura,
Can you please post the details on vendor space. (booth size, are the vendors setting up within the work area, cost, how many heads does that include...)
I assume the hosts have already decided about corporate sponsorship, as the admission price has already been set.
Thank You
Brian Briskie
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
Brian, I have a call into Kevin for the answers. If I hear from him tonight, I'll post immediately. Other then that, I don't know when I can post as we have had a death in the family and the funeral is Wed.
Posted by BrianTheBrush (Member # 1298) on :
Well maybe someone else from these commitees can respond?? PLEASE! My condolencses on your loss, to be sure.
I have to present my 3rd quarter budget/schedule later this week( it's already late...soley do to waiting on details on this perticular meet), and have been waiting for the answers to these questions since late January. I know you may think that waiting a few more days may not make any difference, but in this case it may.
I don't know if this is progress or not...we've gone from having two meets and a trade show all at the same time (2003), to having a meet that noone seems to know anything about.
If the hosts are uncomfortable coming in here and posting, please call me at 585-415-7496, or email me at SignGoldTech@Yahoo.com
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
Here's the guy's e-mail....ESORPNASUS@aol.com
Posted by BrianTheBrush (Member # 1298) on :
At the risk of sounding impatient and frustrated, I still can't get an answer regarding vendor space at the Detroit event via this thread...although this was supposedly the "information pipeline".
At Jane Diaz's suggestion, I emailed the host for information yesterday morning, and still haven't heard back from anyone.
Please, if there are any vendors or merchants here, who have commited to supporting the event or at least buying space, could you please share the details with me. If I don't have paperwork in the hands of the people that I answer to in the next day or two, the decision won't even be mine as to whether or not SignGold can participate at all.
We, SignGold and myself, try to support these events, both large and small. The company is fairly generous and very liberal as to which events I attend, and where I send both working materials and doorprizes; but understandably, they're asking me if this is a "real" event, and are curious as to why noone seems to be able to get me the information I've been requesting since January.
Any information would be helpful please.
Post it here, or call me at 585-415-7496 or email me at SignGoldTech@yahoo.com
Thank You
Brian Briskie
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Brian...Maybe, at the very precise $189.90 cost per person (Kinda sounds like an expensive Wal-Mart special, doesn't it???hehehe) the organisers don't need or want corporate support or involvement Brian???? Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
Not gettin' good vibes here.
Posted by BrianTheBrush (Member # 1298) on :
Well Dave (and Bill, and Jane),
What I don't understand,is that in Laura's initial post, it says they have already had a number of vendor's confirm. Well how did THOSE vendors get information?? Why isn't there an information page available with meet details?
I started emailing and calling this Kevin Betz, back in January. Now perhaps if he had returned at least one of my communications, the admission price might be $154.87, as I could have procured some sponsorship dollars so as to help offset costs.
I emailed him(again), at Jane Diaz's suggestion, on Tuesday morning. Here it is Thursday morning, and the only response I got was from Kent Smith, who says that Kevin is very "anti-computer" and sometimes takes weeks to reply to an email. In my case it's been months. I have indeed left voice messages at the provided phone number as well, to no avail. Sounds like he's just the perfect candidate to organize an event of this magnitude. Or maybe he just doesn't want SignGold as a vendor/sponsor for some reason. If so, please let me know why.
I don't want to hear any more about how beautiful the Masonic Temple is, or about the art show across the street...Just some details on the meet. Stop providing links to the venue, and start providing some regarding the event.
I would assume that if, as a group, we are supposed to work on some columns or something for the Masonic Lodge, that they are in turn providing the Letterheads with free space. So where does $189.90 come into play? Must be we're going to get steak breakfasts and some really high end dinners??!! Either that, or it will be hands-down, the most expensive event T-shirt in my dresser drawer.
The success of these events, is the result of those attending. It's the people that make a meet exciting, educational and memorable. I'll look forward to sharing some meals, knowledge and panels. It's still too bad that last year, we had to choose between two meets, both of which seemed to be very well planned and orchestrated, and this year...well, we'll see what happens.
If anyone is so inclined, I'd still like to have vendor information.
Posted by mike meyer (Member # 542) on :
Ahhhh
I've figgered it out....$189.90 Is the "year" the Detroit School of Lettering started..1899, am I correct Laura? I'm with Brian on this, If you are not a Computer person, delegate the computer duties to someone who IS. There are other ways for promoting a meet besides the computer...send a press release to the Magazines, go to some meets BEFORE the actual Meet and put up a banner, have some hand outs ready...get interest building up....etc. In case you are wondering Brian, my vendors spots for my International in 1999 was $500 for a 10' booth and they will be the same for 2005. It will be in an air conditioned community center. I will have this an many more details coming up this fall on a seperate web link for all interested parties, Vendor and Attendees alike. Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
I have really been holding back commenting about this meet.
Way back when, several months ago, when Laura first posted about it, she got some negative feedback. I defended Kevin, saying to give him a chance.
I know it is not my problem, but I worry that this meet will be a total flop. That would be such a shame. Nobody wants to see that happen!
I also checked back to last summer's post in which Laura complained that meet costs can be detrimental to one's desire to attend. This does seem like a lot to pay for something we know almost nothing about.
I looked in SignCraft....the Maritime Meet is listed, as well as the Greek meet and Mike's meet next year. Nothing about the International.
I see Brian's point quite clearly. He HAS to know details. In fact, we all do. Even if someone IS anti-computer, how hard is it to return a simple phone call? That's just common courtesy. I know this meet has a cool 1930's theme, but heck, even back then they had phones.
I know what it is like to be busy planning a meet. But surely Kevin can find a few minutes to address the aforementioned issues.
Love...Jill
Posted by Kent Smith (Member # 251) on :
Just talked to Kevin and he will call Brian in the next few minutes and he expects to be on line later this evening and will update here when he is.
Posted by BrianTheBrush (Member # 1298) on :
I finally just got the call, and had the opportunity to talk with Kevin Betz. He was in the process of signing contracts with some hotels when I spoke with him. It does sound like he's working his tail off...I just hope he finds some way to communicate with the public.
As it turns out, SignGold wouldn't be allowed to be a vendor OR a sponsor anyways. Kevin explained to me that the theme of this meet is "signpainting in the 1930s" There are no computer, software or vinyl vendors allowed. He told me the only materials and techniques that would be used and practiced were those of the 1930s and earlier. He further explained to me that was the reason that I hadn't recieved vendor information prior to this. So I guess that's that.
I would me remiss, if I didn't say something about all this. And please, non of what I say is any kind of personal jab at Kevin, or any of the commitee members working with him.
Talk about a way to alienate people. He told me that he's already got commitments from "all the best signpainters, stripers and guilders" around today. So if you haven't already heard from him..adjust your attitude..you're not one of the best! I give him credit for feeling as strongly as he does about his meet requirements, but let's call a spade a spade. In the 1930's, most signpainters were mixing their own paints, with white lead, linseed oil, turps and pigments. Then they were crazy, impotent or dead at 60. I'm curious as to whether or not that disqualifies 1Shot, Spraylat, Valspar and HOK. And I'm anxious to see where he hunts up a banner manufacturer that's making banners the way they did 80 years ago. Same goes for MDO, Aluminum faces and so on. Do I feel that he's pigeonholing himself here..absolutley. I told him so, but also told him I admired him for his convictions.
If the idea of coming out of a meet with sensory overload is all you're looking for, then it sounds like he may be able to pull that off. But I enjoy the information sharing aspects of meets..not just on the disciplines of the trade, which are important; but also on ways to increase my bottom line, or better serve my clientel base. So forget about any new 2 part clears from 1Shot, or using a computer-generated mask for glue chipping.
At $189.00 per head, it makes it tough for a couple to attend (that's 378 beans BEFORE ya travel, or pay for some sheets and a shower.) And yes, he mentioned he has the finest caterer in Detroit handling 3 meals a day. But If I want really great meals..I go to really great restaurants. I'd rather have a beef barbeque sandwich, and share some base coat-clear coat techniques with some ambitious 16 year old upstart.
I won't go on, as it's fruitless, but I do have to say, this 4 month ordeal of trying to pry vendor information from someone who just doesn't want SignGold's money, isn't going to make it any easier for me to present sponsorship/vendor proposals to my superiors for future meets.
I do indeed hope, that Kevin's meet is a huge success, which will certainly be beneficial to future meets. Isn't ironic though, that he told me all of this on a cel phone.
Keep on keepin' on.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Well seeing as I wasn't invented in the 1930's I guess I am not allowed at the meet as well.
That's 189.90 I can use to buy new brushes and things for my new shop.
Thanks for making this an easy decision.
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Brian, I still love you & Paulette & welcome you two to my shop anytime.
This is starting to sound like an invite-only not an international. I just thought the common courtesy of invite-only meets was that they aren't announced.
I'm not sure alienation is a strong enough word Brian. At Mass Mayhem this weekend, I spoke with some great people who most will agree are some of the best (or "superstars" for those who heard Bruce's presentation) and they weren't even aware there was a meet in Detroit.
See ya in Mazeppa in '05. Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Brian..Thanks for the update. I'm glad you were finally able to be contacted by the "organiser" of the meet.
And thanks for mentioning that they aren't interested in anything that involves puters or "newer" products, even paints (what a way to make "letterheads" an exclusive club). Guess Shirl and I'll save our $379.80 US (about $500 Cdn) to go to a REAL meet in New Brunswick in August.
I am a "real" person who earns his living doing sign work in TODAYS "REAL" market and don't need to be ignored or put down by "elitists" like Kevin Betz. What an attitude!
I use vinyl, I use an airbrush (did they have them in the 30's?) I sandblast glass..but I am not good enuf to qualify??? HELL..I wasn't even born till 1944!!!!
I sincerely hope that the "international meet" is a success. But I have a feeling that it won't be.
This is MY OPINION...and I have had no contact with Brian, Bill or Jane. (wish I had had contact with Jilly though!!!!! LOL)
Am I ****ed at the attitude??? YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bring on the flames..I don't care.
Posted by Dan Streicher (Member # 4515) on :
Wow Seriously Thank You For all of the information on this "Meet" Brian, as you have provided more than anyone else has, and this isn't me being sarcastic it is the truth....I was looking forward to making this meet, and that is a trek for this guy (cross country) but after all that has transpired or has FAILED to transpire at this point I am crossing it off my list. What a complete failure to inform and motivate people to attend. And just a side note Brian the Brush you are one of the superstars or whatever they want to call them in my book. Think I just saved myself $189 +airfare+hotel+all the other expenses. For a disorganized, unprofessionally presented meet that could have been a wonderful experience for all...what a shame. that's a expensive T-Shirt...must be one hell of a design
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
quote:Some of the panels that are being donated will be custom spray painted with automotive colors...metallics, pearls, marbles, candies, etc. One of the committees daughters has volunteered to do this.
Did they do this in the 1930's? Will any of the project panels be from computer-generated sources? Will there be wooden sign blanks? Sorry if I sound catty but this blows my mind. When I went to my first meet in 1994, folks who had computers were pretty quiet about it. If you did vynull, you didn't admit it. But let's get real. Most of us have computers now, whether we paint or not. Even strict vynullers like Kissy are trying to get into old stuff like glue chipping, and I love to see that. We live in an age where computers make our jobs easier. I think we have the best of both worlds now. To totally reject a group of willing sponsors because their products weren't around back in the day is close-minded at best. To me, the Letterhead movement has always been about learning new techniques and teaching our tricks to one another. It's kind of hard to do that with your head in the sand. Gee, I'm feeling kind of alienated here, and I am a painter. Love...Jill
Posted by BrianTheBrush (Member # 1298) on :
PLEASE!!!
DO NOT MAKE YOUR DECISIONS ABOUT THIS MEET BASED ON MY SITUATION!!!!
I tried to emphasize in my post that it sounds like Kevin's working like a dog. We gotta see what he comes up with.
Is he seriously late on getting out information to everyone??
YES
Is what I ranted about earlier MY interpretation of the meet, based on a 15 minute conversation??
YES
Let him get his **** together and tell everyone how things come together. I meant it when I said I hope that Kevin's event is a success. Success breeds success, while failure breeds comtempt. We don't need that.
Shake it easy and keep on keepin' on
Posted by Mark Higdon (Member # 2990) on :
Way to political for me, and I guess time will be better served anywhere else.
Magic
Posted by dave parr (Member # 3868) on :
Kevin,
If you are trying to go to the chat page, press the green button at the top right of this page. You will be taken to a chat page and be able to interact with those there.
Dave
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
I would like to give a up-date for the International 2004 Detroit Meet. I have done my best to include the best for everyone. This has not been an easy task nor do I choose to do this again! As of today, I have contracts and agreements with the City of Detroit and the Masonic Temple also with three hotels to provide an atmosphere full of fun. I am sorry if anyone has cast out upon myself but, I am trying to understand design and layout from my peers.
I am trying not to offend anyone because of the computer but, in my 21 years of Letterhead Meets, I believe education is the future. If the masses believe that the computer be part of the International, than so be it. I no longer know what is expected of a International. After Rick's passing, I felt inclined to establish a home and a place to secure the knowledge of the past. Maybe I have been to worried about providing good expectations that I forgot to inform everyone. My ears are open for suggestions and ideas to make your accommodations a pleasant stay. I look forward to exchanging tips and tricks of the trade with everyone. I will have a list for projects, leaders, events, etc. on Monday morning, May 10th. Sorry for the delay but take a step back in time. Thank you. Krazy Kevin Betz
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
Dave: I followed your instructions and all I am getting is a blue background with white lettering which makes no sense to me. What else should I do? Kevin
Posted by Kent Smith (Member # 251) on :
This is Judi, not Kent, but written under his name because it is written primarily as the wife of an old time sign painter.
Kevin, Letterheads DO learn from the past, but we live in the present and dream of the future. Computers, just like synthetic brushes, store-bought paints, plastics, hdu, power tools, aluminum, and all the other industry improvements over the last 60 years or so cannot be ignored if you want to be a moving force in THIS day and age. Learning to use old techniques -- and to adapt them to today's materials -- is both desirable AND necessary if we want to create works of art that do their job promoting and identifying in TODAY's market. Actually, the tips and tricks of computer technique are some of the most valuable things Kent and I learn at Letterhead meets.
The individual who refuses to recognize the gifts of the present and the future is as disabled as he who refuses to recognize the gifts of the past. The individual capable of recognizing the benefits of BOTH and incorporating ALL the knowledge available is the true LETTERHEAD. If we put our heads in the sand and ignore either our heritage or our progeny -- we all suffer.
The "best" signpainter hasn't been born yet. The "best" material hasn't been invented. The "best" technique hasn't been conceived. Because, it is the job of each generation to improve upon the last.
NOW -- more to the point. If you are hosting an INTERNATIONAL Letterhead Meet,you cannot REFUSE entry to anyone! (With the possible exception of those who continually crash the party without paying the fees.) If you exclude ANY individual you are hosting a meet ONLY for that segment of the industry that hand letters, an ever shrinking entity as signpainters retire. Perhaps a meet to reminisce ... but which excludes any NEW ideas?
Letterheads is founded upon the worth of EVERY individual, EVERY quality material, EVERY technique and the sharing of ALL knowledge, even that which you find unfamiliar and threatening.
Obviously, MY (as myself, not Kent's wife) product line will not be welcome at the meet, so I will not be a vendor, and you can tell Laura to forget what I said: I will not force a donation of my software on you. But -- I WILL BE THERE. I think it is vital for the Letterhead movement that THIS meet be attended by people who respect both the past AND the future.
Posted by dave parr (Member # 3868) on :
Sorry Kevin. I must have missed you. After the green button is clicked, there will be a Java applet (a screen asking if you would like to accept...) offered to you, you need to accept this, and wait for the screen to load. You will soon see the chat screen complete with a list of the folks logged in. A text box is at the bottom ready for input and the current conversation will soon be visible.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Well said Judi!!
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
This doesn't happen very often but I have to agree with Brian Briskie and others here and will add that it just ain't friggin worth it. Here we go as everything has come so far and yet some of you can't practice what you preach, shame on you, the original 7, thats a joke in itself Posted by AdrienneMorgan (Member # 1046) on :
Considering inflation......
How much would $189.90 be worth in 1930?
Just curious...
A;)
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
can anyone say "BetterHeads"?
...Aloha means goodbye too
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
Judy, I agree with Dave....very well said.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Kevin,
quote: I am trying not to offend anyone because of the computer but, in my 21 years of Letterhead Meets, I believe education is the future.
Letterheads have changed in the last 21 years. I agree with you that the traditions of sharing knowledge is the real core of what the Letterhead movement is. Those who are interested in learning/sharing tips, tricks, technical knowledge in the sign industry are more frequently those who use modern technology and materials. I'm sorry, Kevin, but I think the direction this post is about to take is not going to be very favorable to your meet. Given the information on this post to date, sadly, I think the damage has been done and the sense of alienation by those who predominantly use computers may be already in place.
When I first read the information on the "Future Live Meets" (very little at that), I felt like I was reading about a museum tour, very unlike the meets I've attended in the past. As this post has developed, I think my initial felling was pretty close to the mark.
I sincerely hope you take some of these posts into consideration as you make future arrangements for this meet.
"The wise man must remember that while he is a descendant of the past, he is a parent of the future." -Herbert Spencer
Best of luck, Rapid
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
What started out as a good idea -- people in the same craft, sharing knowledge and experiences has evolved. There used to be a loosely held idea that there would be one meet each year that was the mother-of-all meets. This meet would have the word "INTERNATIONAL" attached to it to seperate it from the others. This meet would include everyone who was interested in our allied trades. Those with the most successes both in skills and knowledge would lead these meets with their seminars and connections. All processes involved -- both old and new, were always highlighted during these events. Those who supplied us with their products were given a chance to participate and instuct us on the latest improvements. Those who aspired to get better or learn more about these crafts could count on the international meet to have the diversity and energy to give them the enthusiasm to go back home and try to bring their skills to a higher level. In turn all of us involved would be assured that our crafts would take on a greater respectability in our society after years of low esteem.
We have benefitted greatly because of the Letterhead movement, and we have taken our crafts from a secretive downtrodden ways of life, where the artists got little respect and had little clout in the business community into a way of life we can be proud of -- where we make a difference in the quality of life for humanity.
Somewhere along the way, as this thing got bigger, there arose a group who thought that they were vastly superior to others. They looked down their noses at the rest who were aspiring to get better. This is probably a natural evolution. There are those of us who really don't want to rain on these people's parade. If they want to lock themselves into a conference hall and sooth each others egos, they are certainly entitled. The word "international" should be taken off the title of their meet, because it does not correctly apply to their attitude.
Not to mention names, but not all highly skilled artisans are approachable. They make you feel like you are inferior in their midst. The best craftsman do not necessarily make the best teachers or promoters of our crafts. Being around them has never helped me become better, it has only made me not want to be like them. I'm not shy about lending a person a helpful tip or even helping a competitor with a problem. It seems like every time I help someone, I get helped threefold.
Maybe this evolution is the reason why we have so many more meets than we used to. I keep hearing how much people enjoy smaller more intimate meets when all they really want to do is learn something and share something. It's hard to have a positive exchange when the person on the other end has his nose out of joint. This year's supposed "international meet" has its nose out of joint. I've seen this coming for some time. I hope it's not the death nail of these events, because I think its important to have a bigger event where we "ALL" can get in touch with the diversity that has helped promote what we do.
[ May 07, 2004, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Bill Diaz ]
Posted by Dan Streicher (Member # 4515) on :
I'm starting to think that "they" came up with that $189 price because they knew they didn't want the majority there and knew if they wanted a good meal they'd have to pony up the money themselves...but, I have a feeling those caterers are going to have a Sh!t Load of food left over and that someone is going to be paying the difference between what they thought they would have in dollars from attendance and reality...Good Luck Your Gonna Need It.
This all is really unfortunate the reality of our industry is that if the "masters" of our craft do not share their skills and techniques it will become lost and technology and the quicky sticky shops will take over....
have a great time at your "international meet" telling each other how great you were....(not are)
and for the record my decision has nothing to do with Brian "the kick butt with a brush and make it look easy and cool at the same time", and I'd hate for him to feel that he is responsible for everyone jumping ship on this meet.
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
Dan, Let me go on record that I and any on the committee had nothing to do with the price. Kevin decided the price before we were involved.
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
It's not about the price. There are people in this trade who bitch about paying anything to attend a meet - I well remember all the tirades about the Mazeppa Muster in '99, how expensive it was, yada yada. But I don't recall anyone going up to Mike afterward and wanting their money back, because that was a great meet.
That said, excluding any demos or materials related to computer-aided signmaking, and to do so in such a clumsy and insulting fashion, is a plain invitation to disaster.
There's no greater exponent of learning the traditional skills than myself - and I've been more than happy to use the latest technology to say so. I believe there's a future for the one out of a thousand people who learn to hand-letter, simply because they ARE one out of a thousand - and there's no down side, in a competive industry, to having another skill in the arsenal, as it were.
I'm not going to jump on the Kevin-bashing wagon here; I've only met him a few times, briefly, over the years. His decisions regarding the focus of a meet he's organizing are his responsiblity, however, as Judi said, to call a meet an International - with all the implications in that - and to deliberately exclude a major portion of the sign industry, is in itself an example of irresponsible behavior. In the end, that does more damage than benefit to the movement, and to the ideals of traditional sign-making that he is so desperate to preserve. And that's just a damn shame.
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Ms. Judi, I was'nt even thinking of looking at info about this meet . . . but got to readin' the replies between you and Jill, the truth really shines thru; ya'll are the cream-of-the-crop.
The words on your last reply should be made into a letterheads credo or somethin'.
Thanks sign chicks for sayin' things SO beautifully straight forward Posted by Dan Streicher (Member # 4515) on :
In all honesty the price has very little to do with it, I have just not been convinced that it is worth the price for what is "being provided" obviously the potential of knowledge and new I mean old techniques learned is invaluable. However I am not going to waste my limited time to travel and attend a meet that is so far completely disorganized, unpromoted, and thus far completely lacking the letterhead philosophy as I have come to understand it in the half of my life that I have dedicated to this craft. Thus far in my opinion this meet is being promoted to very few, offering very little that applies to the real world workings of todays industry, has alienated almost everyone, and sounds like a expensive way to see a temple that I have no interest in, while eating the best meals in an atmosphere that is starting to sound like most of us are not welcome in....count me out, I'd rather go to nearby humble joes sign and creative thinkings shop, and share a technique learn a new one, eat a barbequed hamburger with friends in the industry swapping lies and creating new ones and leaving our signatures on his refridgerator....I was starting to type out what I thought could and should be done to reinform the masses of this meet and what I'd like to see and learn at this meet...but I am too frustrated and just don;t give a rip any more good luck to you
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on :
The answer to Adrienne's question is that $189.90 in 1930 is roughly the equivelent of $1922.20 today.
I suppose that explains why there were no Letterheads in 1930, eh?
[ May 08, 2004, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: Don Coplen ]
Posted by Bill Cosharek (Member # 1274) on :
I thought it went the other way, Don. If you use 6% for 74 years and the future value is $189.90, then the 1930 cost would be $2.55. That's figuring it backwards.
(edited in) I used 6% but I see you used about 3%. That would be appx $21.31.
[ May 08, 2004, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: Bill Cosharek ]
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
I think both of you are correct. Just depends on which way you look at it.
What would $189.90 in 1930 be worth today...or what would $189.90, today, have been worth in 1930.
Edited to say.....
"I THINK"
Boy my head hurts!!!!!!!!!
The more I think about it the more my head hurts!!!!!!!!
Why don't people ask easy questions, like, what is the sum total of 1+1+1 in the binary numerical system??????
[ May 08, 2004, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: Dave Grundy ]
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
Dave, Bet you didn't think that I would know.
11
I am geeky enough to know that that is how computers operate.
[ May 08, 2004, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on :
OK, maybe this will help put things in perspective. In 1973, a brand spankin new Farrari Dino stickered for $15,000...that included destination, dealer prep, everything.
Should there be a reunion Detroit Temple meet in 20 years, expect the entry fee to be about the same...$15,000.
Of course, a big reason for that will be that in 20 years, it will be hard to fill a hotel room with sign people who don't use computers, let alone any kind of meeting hall. A two person "international" meet would be awful expensive.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Hey Laura!!!! We have something in common. Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
it might have to be "intergalactic" to find 2 of that species Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
is $189.90 so much money. to learn how to make more money.
Posted by Dan Streicher (Member # 4515) on :
Kevin if you would, please tell me what you are intending to teach us at this event that will teach us how to make more money?
We can continue to beat a dead horse here but I'm going to step away from all that for a moment and ask you honestly, what are you going to teach us at this meet? how will whatever you are going to teach us benefit all of us in our businesses? who is going to share these "things" with us that are going to make us more money?
$189 is not alot of money, but I'd sure like to know what it is going to buy me.
We've all heard about this 1930's theme and I think it is great to have a theme and a direction, but please tell me how the elimination and exclusion of modern day materials, equipment, and techniques at this meet is going to benefit me, my business, and make me more money.
Please tell me who is going to be leading what projects or classes? Please tell me what vendors are going to be represented? Please tell us all what we are going to gain from this meet?
I truly am not trying to be sarcastic or nasty here, there are many people who are frustrated and feel alienated including myself. Please educate us on why we should all invest our valuable time in this event and what we will gain from it?
I sincerely look forward to your reply....sell us on this event, the stage is yours.......
[ May 09, 2004, 02:35 AM: Message edited by: Dan Streicher ]
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
is this meet about making money or sharing the know-how of one to another. I know how to make money,it's easy. but it's getting better at lay-out & design that's hard.
Posted by Dan Streicher (Member # 4515) on :
Kevin you are the one who posed the question
"is $189.90 so much money. to learn how to make more money."
since you made that statement I'm just asking how you are going to teach me to make more money.
You ask "is this meet about making money or sharing the know-how of one to another"
I don't know I am waiting for you to tell me.
Since almost everyone has said something about the price that you came up with and it was stated earlier that you came up with this price before any of the other people helping you with this were involved, and it seems to be a topic of interest. Why don't you just tell us how you came up with that price and put that topic to rest? we are all aware that these events cost money, we all live and work in the real world.
Aditionally I would just like to state that I think it is kind of close minded to exclude vendors who truly want to help (which would also lower the cost for the people attending) because their products were not in use during the era that you are choosing for the theme of this meet, that in my opinion does nothing to introduce all of the attending craftsmen to new products that we do have to use in the here and now world.
The majority of the information that all of us have received has been second hand from people who have spoke with you and posted what has transpired, you are here now, tell us what you are trying to accomplish, what we can expect, why we should be excited to attend this meet, I don't know how to be any more clear.....you ask a question and answer with another question, lets get the details out on the table so people can start planning...August may seem like a long ways away but most of us as I am assuming you are own and run very busy businesses and planning needs to be done....I've asked what I needed to ask to make my decision on if I am going to make the trek to this event, will you please answer my questions so that I can make a decision. I appreciate your time in answering my questions and everyone elses, we all understand that this is a monumental task to achieve and that you are not going to make everyone happy but we all need some information on this event.....thank you
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Thanks for the email Kevin I just went back to one of your posts, & found the inspiration for how I wanted to reply. I think you seem like an awfully nice guy, doing a thankless job that most of us will never do, & of those who have, many will never do again. The sad thing is you are now in a position to not only recieve minimum appreciation for your "thankless" job... but you are also subject to maximum criticism.
...it's time for SOME SERIOUS DAMAGE CONTROL dude!!
It's never too late to sieze an opportunity to react to a situation & turn the tide. Here is the post where I found my inspiration to send this reply:
"I am trying not to offend anyone because of the computer but, in my 21 years of Letterhead Meets, I believe education is the future. If the masses believe that the computer be part of the International, than so be it. I no longer know what is expected of a International. After Rick's passing, I felt inclined to establish a home and a place to secure the knowledge of the past. Maybe I have been to worried about providing good expectations that I forgot to inform everyone. My ears are open for suggestions and ideas to make your accommodations a pleasant stay. I look forward to exchanging tips and tricks of the trade with everyone. I will have a list for projects, leaders, events, etc. on Monday morning, May 10th..."
Take the hint from the brewing discension... you don't seem at all like a stubborn guy... the mob mentality in Letterville can be ruthless, but we're all basically good people. I've been an azzhole a time or two, others have, (sometimes to me)... but so many of us are posting here every single day... that zhit happens, you react, you deal, you move on... basically everyone gets along. So if your post quoted above really means you are backing down on the computer/no computer issue... then post that loud & clear... invite Signgold too, & Kent's wifes product (whatever that is again) It may be too late for them to show now, but maybe you could still get in the good graces of the sizable percentage of heads that are beginning to feel alienated if you START YOUR OWN THREAD WITH A RETRACTION OF YOUR POST 1930 RESTRICTIONS, & ANOTHER INVITATION FOR SUGGESTIONS. I see you basically did these 2 things to some degree in the post I quoted... but the shock waves of the initial reaction to some information about your meet are now reverberating much too loudly to be silenced with a few words lost 40 replies deep into an old thread. START MONDAY OFF ON A NOTE OF HUMBLE RECONCILLIATION WITH YOUR "LIST" & WILLINGNESS TO LET IT EVOLVE AS PER THE WISHES OF THE MASSES. BE A FACILITATOR FOR "WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT" NOT A DICTATOR OF WHAT YOU WILL ALLOW.
I know you mean well, & I hate to join the ranks of the discension without offering the olive branch of comraderie. You seem to have have unwittingly made yourself a target while trying only to offer a good thing... while this may be true, that fact alone will not reverse what is currently happening. They say two wrongs don't make a right... & our jumping on your case may be wrong... but if you don't stand up & deal with it now... I don't think things will turn out right.
Posted by Harris Kohen (Member # 2139) on :
well said Doug Allan!
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
I've been following it for a while, and now it's time for me to comment First, as usual, the whiners are jumping in and not offering any kind of positive reinforcement for someone who's taking on such a monumental task. Second, I recall a recent post about rules at a Letterhead meet. If I remember correctly, it's up to the host to make his own rules. Since Kevin's hosting this meet, we have to play by Kevin's rules. If we don't like his rules, we don't have to attend. Third, As I and many others have experienced in the past, it's tough to get a Letterhead to commit to anything. Remember, Laura is just a messenger. She can only inform you of what's confirmed. Although she's fairly new to the business, she's learned a lot over the last couple of years and she is being proactive in helping the Letterhead cause. If you have comments, positive or negative, you should contact her and allow her time to address your comments with the committee. Since most of these people working on these committees are volunteers and have other commitments, you may have to wait a while to get your answers. If you're impatient - see my second comment. Finally, I admire Kevin's approach to hosting a meet like this. In a way, I feel it's cutting edge by taking a giant step backwards. I'll admit that without a computer, I would not be a sign maker and I would have chosen a different career path. However, I have learned that good design is not something that can be done by a computer. The computer is just a tool that makes designing a lot easier. By eliminating these crutches that most new sign makers use, we gain a better understanding on what makes a good design, great. So, before you write this meet off give these volunteers a little more time to finish up the details and give us another update. It's starting to sound like an educational meet that shouldn't be missed.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
*Edit* Yes, well said Doug
[ May 09, 2004, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: Checkers ]
Posted by Cheryl Lucas (Member # 1656) on :
Kevin,
I agree with Doug, in that it's time to step up to the plate and nip this one in the bud. Cut losses and start anew.
I've hosted a Letterhead meet, at my shop, and understand the frustrations of organizing, budgeting and pleasing everyone, etc.
Attendee's who gather, will have come from all walks of life, each having something to offer and sacrifices made, to show up. Some will watch, some will share, some will learn and some will be there just to see if these Letterhead meets we boast about, are all they're cracked up to be. No matter your focal point or intentions, those who show up, will allow your meet to take on a life of it's own. It is then, this meet will no longer be in your contol.
I feel, it would be close minded and an injustice to everyone, to limit the representation of our industry products/vendors, to one era. The reality is, we're living in today. We, need contacts and knowledge about product, whether it's for a faux antique sign or a demonstration showing how well this or that vinyl conforms over rivits. If you feel you must remain limited, at the very least, the merchants who support Letterville, should receive an open invitation to promote their offerings. I hope, you reconsider and make amends with Brian and SignGold, as well as whomever else this decision has affected.
'Build it, and they will come.'
Cher.
Posted by dave parr (Member # 3868) on :
Letterheads,
While I've been having serious doubts if I could even manage to go to this meet, I've been quite interested in the fundamental concept. I became quite excited when I first saw this,
“This will be a l930's theme showing different styles and techniques of that era. In addition, I will be re-opening the Detroit School of Lettering during which there will be an official ribbon cutting.”
...here http://www.letterhead.com/events.html ...last fall I believe. Not only was there going to be an International meet close enough to make it possible to attend, but perhaps I was going to be able to attend an event with that flare that was present at the early meets. A concentration of energy toward learning. A sharing of the fire and energy that builds inside when ideas, concepts & techniques are tossed about and explored. (That's every Letterhead meet!)
The more I learn about the agenda of the meet, the more I like the sound of it. I see Kevin Betz trying to stress a back to the basics approach with this meet. This is not to say I believe Kevin thinks we can rewrite history and remove the evil computer from our midst, but to focus on the basic elements of design to help improve the final product, whatever tool we choose to use. I'm sure Kevin knows computers are here to stay and benefits from their use daily. I see this as Kevin's attempt to guide the direction of the meet, not exclude specific individuals, ...but look what has happened.
Since no meet can exist without The People, and the people & suppliers can't exist without each other, I think this is a non issue. In my mind it is clear that Kevin was only trying to control or focus the theme by limiting the suppliers. To this I have to ask Kevin, ...shouldn't it be left up to the supplier? Good grief, I'd think you'd want as much support as possible. At the Letter Rip meet last summer, there were suppliers present but the Heads were all out working on projects, not hanging around the booths, but I remember who they were. This is what the suppliers need when the buyers do their buying. We all want to learn and a suppliers presence at a meet can only help. Since this is all about learning, many of us will make the time to check out the vendors wares, thus making our understanding & ability to function in todays world more balanced.
As I mull all of this over, I remember this is a diverse group coming from many perspectives. I recall my own feelings about adjusting to new technology. On one hand I wanted very much to be involved with the cutting edge. On the other hand, I longed for the past. I've tried to dream of the future, of what technology will avail for our craft and I've wanted to study in depth the methods of the past. I wonder how much of the tension being expressed about this meet, is our group as a whole adjusting to the passions we feel inside for our work. Many of us seem to be focused on making the work of the past, live today. It would probably be important to recall that we are all fired up inside about the best of the work from the past. I doubt that most could afford the best of the work in the nineteen thirties, as it is today. It seems to me that it is the artisan quality inside us that helps us appreciate extraordinary work. It also seems to me that it is that artisan quality, we are afraid the world will loose, if we don't try and keep it alive. If we can learn from each generation we will have accomplished something. If we can incorporate the most accurate and most productive techniques from each era, combined with good design principles we will have achieved something. If we can maintain this momentum of accomplished achievement, while preserving the artisans perception, ...wow, I'd like to see the result of that.
Bla, Bla, Bla ...
Enough of this, I've got to stain a floor.
Keep on sharing!
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
just stopped by to say hi. i have a truck to do but will be back later to give more info. and up-dates. kb
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
I am glad to see that those that have been lurking are finally coming out and posting postive things about this meet. There are many of you that have spoken what I have wanted to say and have said it more elouqantly then I could have. Thank you Thank you Thank you.
On to a second thought..and I hope I don't say anything to offend anyone but to open the eyes of a few. It is said that there is a way that you can tell when a parent and a child's roles have been reversed. When a parent is driving in a car and (a child is sitting in the seat next to them) stops suddenly, its almost automatic for the parent to throw their arm up to try to stop or protect the child from going forward. There are those times that we want to go somewhere and our parent goes along too as a passenger. You know the parent/child roles have reversed when the parent is in the seat next to the driver, you stop suddenly and you throw your arm out to protect your parent. Your roles are now changing.
I say this because I think we are at a time when many of you that have been at this for many years are now at a role reversal. As the older sign painter generation fades away, this next generation of sign people (those that have been at it 10,15, 20 years...) need to start thinking about reversing the roles. Instead of thinking about "what am I going to get out of this meet" Maybe its time to say "who can I spend time with, teach, pass on my knowledge" at this meet.
My first meet was at Troy Haas's. Gary Anderson showed myself and others how to do marble techniques on a sheet of aluminum. Sam and some others showed me how to use pinstriping brushes...take care of them, load them...clean them, pull a straight line, etc. CJ showed us how to tape out flames on a van that was going to be painted. Dave Draper showed us how make imitation stone pillars out of HDU.
Our next meet was Don Hulsey.I had never lettered, pinstriped, painted a sign in my life. PKing Duck let me use his brushes and he got me started. He showed both myself and my husband different strokes, lettering etc.
I know that each meet is different and takes on its own personality. What I have seen recently is that many people at meets, go, do some panels, hang with those that they know and generally have lots of fun. I hate to ask someone how to do something because I feel like I am interrupting.
I do want to thank the young man at Mike Meyers meet in Feb. that took the time to show myself and many others how to use an airbrush. He let us use his equipment, his paints, his time. He spent time with us. I am sorry but I don't remember your name but you know who you are. You to me have the whole essence of what the letterhead movement is all about. I am not saying that there aren't any others out there like you. Its just you took the time with me when I would not have asked.
[ May 09, 2004, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
Posted by BrianTheBrush (Member # 1298) on :
Just checking for the Monday May 10th post...
Posted by Barbara Murrell (Member # 3879) on :
Hi All, I have just read through all of this thread and I am amazed. I was so thrilled to be going to my first Letterhead Meet. To meet American signpainters, the best in the world. To learn techniques that are fast being forgotten. I am new to signpainting. I am fairly new to the Letterheads and I thought I might be out of my depth in coming to this meet, yet hoping that I would be able to learn something and feel a part of a good movement. I thought it was refreshing to have a meet where computers where not a part of it. Yes we all use them for making money, but to learn techniques and skills and how to do things from scratch without "help" was what I thought these meets where about and this one in particular. I am glad to be able to learn how to do things without relying on my computer.
I have spoken to Kevin on a few occaisions over a phone line with a terrible delay. But I found him to be charming and enthusiastic about this meet. My understanding is that he is just a business owner, putting on this event for others to share. He is not an events organiser or someone with any particular skills in this area. Give him some slack. I must say that all this back biting and bitchiness is putting me off going to this meet. I don't want to feel like a little school girl, too afraid to speak to all you people who have been in this trade for years and years. There are enough "old boys" in this country who think that the trade should die with them. I thought you might be different.
As for the cost of this meet. I think it is very reasonable. To do a 4 day glass gilding and glass chipping course in the UK cost £400.00 thats about $776.00. That does not include food! I hope that you can convince me that this will be a good place for a new signpainter to meet up with some of the best.
My parents are going to lend me the money for the flights, accommodation and meet so that I can expand my knowledge and feel more confident in my signpainting. I also hope that I will make some friends.............. or will I be disappointed?
Posted by Sonny Franks (Member # 588) on :
Barbara, For the most part, I think the previous posters have cut Kevin quite a bit of slack. I don't think it's wrong to expect more information about an event that was announced over a year ago, especially an "International". After all the questions, I would think Kevin or his communications staff would attempt to fill us in or at least assuage our doubts. He's said numerous times that seminars and the "big names" are booked, but so far, we don't know what or who. Personally, I don't base decisions on attending a meet by who's coming because I've found that I can learn a lot from just about EVERYBODY. Many people like yourself have to book flights and rooms well in advance; vendors like Brian need info early as well. Virtually nothing has been forthcoming. I asked Laura about the 189.90 fee, and she admitted that Kevin came up with this figure because of the significance of the year 1899. It's certainly more than most meets cost, and I can't help but wonder if this is a strange way to price it.(Hey Kevin, how about $18.99 instead?) Barbara, by all means, get yourself to a Letterhead meet. You won't regret it, and your work will take a visible leap to another level. However, I don't know yet if this is the meet for you (or me) until we see some more info. I have no doubt that Kevin is working very hard to pull this off - we once worked on a vintage fire truck together in Banff until dawn, and the guy is a ball of fire - but until we hear specifics, I don't think the Letterville population is wrong to ask questions and expect more answers.
Posted by Dan Streicher (Member # 4515) on :
Sonny THANK YOU well said, I don't think it is too much to ask either
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kevin W. Betz: I will have a list for projects, leaders, events, etc. on Monday morning, May 10th..."
oops... my bad... I thought WE would have the list this morning, you said YOU would have it this morning. When do WE get to see it?
quote:Originally posted by Kevin W. Betz: just stopped by to say hi. i have a truck to do but will be back later to give more info. and up-dates. kb
BTW, hows that truck going? is it LATER yet?
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
Come on Guys. Give ole' Kev a break. He's just learning to post. We're doing all we can to get him up to speed and get all the info out to you.
The promised flyer containing more details on this meet is now posted on The Future Events Page. If you look at the Detroit International, you'll see a link called flyer. It's 5 pages long. Here's a direct link.
A Registration Form is also in the works. Doug! Put out the torches for now. Calm that angry mob and lead them back down the mountain. Posted by Bruce Deveau (Member # 1600) on :
Good grief, I've never seen such whining. I remember all the naysaying about Jill's Mars Meet two years ago...all it did was HURT Jill and make her job more difficult...The meet was great. They always are great. It doesn't matter what is being "taught." It will all be there, just like it always is. I was in Boise several years ago and seem to remember the price was higher than $189. and I heard that Noel still lost money.
Just go, have a good time, and stop complaining.
Bruce Deveau
Posted by Stephen Broughton (Member # 2237) on :
I agree with Bruce what a bunch of moaning old gits $189 thats only about £100, £25 a day with free food!! I couldn't eat that cheaply per day anywhere in the UK, if you think thats expensive then come here to the land of the $8 a gallon for Petrol (Gas). Shut Up!!!!
Kev I wish you the best of luck mate and would love to come but cant afford the $1100 (each) flight plus hotels, spending money and the wife can't get time off work so would be unfair to leave her at home.
Posted by Kent Smith (Member # 251) on :
Laura - What a marvelous description of what Letterheads is all about!
I have no doubt that Dave Parr is right about Kevin's intent. Computers move so fast they do not allow the time to learn what the standard apprentice program used to teach. The industry is so intent upon output that we often overlook the finer points of input -- and that is what "Back to the 30s" is all about.
For Letterhead kids like Kevin, growing up at meets, it was commonplace to know the craftsmen who appeared in the magazines and to call them for advice. It still is. THESE "highly skilled craftsmen" are VERY approachable. BY the way, the first paragraph of Bill Diaz May7 post is an excellant description of the roots of the Letterhead movement.
I can remember teenage Kevin saying, "When I host a meet ..." Kevin now wants the teachers he grew up with to teach at "his" meet. Small meets have their place but we are very lucky that dedicated sign industry people still volunteer to host the annual gathering of the clan. For those of you looking for mentors: nowhere can you find a larger number of master craftsmen in oneplace -- teaching -- and learning from -- novices.
By the way -- kudos to Kevin, Laura, and the committee. You did an amazing amount of work in TWO WEEKS. The "Step Back in Time" program will be of particular interest to my husband, historian that he is, and proved a great way to include the interests of the "modern" age.
Checkers is also right. The theme and direction of any meet are ENTIRELY up to the host(s). There are NO rules. I stand corrected. It has become customary to invite everyone to an International but the decision DOES belong to the hosts. Its their party.
Dan, Kevin cannot tell you what you will learn at the 2004 meet. He can tell you his plans -- but not the results. In the electrically charged atmosphere of creative energy, spontaneous demos emerge along side those planned. People learning + teaching, painting + gilding, carving, even simply talking ... All anyone can tell you is that you will miss ... something.
Posted by Kent Smith (Member # 251) on :
Oops -- the above is Judi, not Kent. When he gets back from the job-site, I will have him teach me how to post in my own name.
Posted by BrianTheBrush (Member # 1298) on :
Well, Apparently, the core of my original post has be misconstrued (as seems to happen here).
I'm not Kevin bashing...I'm not whining...
But I'm also not attending.
I posted to express my total frustration with the fact that I began trying to contact Kevin in January, and when I finally heard from him, it turned out that SignGold's support wasn't wanted. I was told straight up, that this was a "computer and computer-related products-free event."
Kevin did mention that if I wanted to come in and hand cut some SignGold, that would be acceptable.
I was also dismayed by Kevin's statement about already having "all the best guys around" lined up for seminars. I found that to be a brash, if not insulting statement. The best guys??? Don't be foolish. Really good guys to be certain. Maybe even great. I think that, coupled with Kevin's ongoing statement "I will be reopening the Detroit School of Lettering", made him come across as being a bit cocksure. But hell, I'm like that most of the time. I always say that "cockiness becomes confidence, when you can back it up."
But I also wrote in my intial post, that Kevin seemed to be working really hard at getting his ducks in a row...and that EVERYONE should wait for Monday's post to decide.
Having "grown up at meets", Kevin should be hip to the fact that these things take lots of planning. To BEGIN informing people about a meet three months prior, especially a meet that bears the name "International", is nuts.
When I mentioned to Kevin that companies like SignGold, US Banner, Midwest Sign Supply and others, all kicked in solid chunks of change at past meets, to help keep the cost down...he was surprised. Vendors like SignGold can indeed offer something to those who attend these events, in the form of underwriting. Why did this surprise Kevin? You'd think that, growing up at meets, he'd know what it takes to run one.
I don't dislike Kevin. I don't even know Kevin. He actually seems like a good guy. I think he might be a guy that's in over his head; but we've all been there. And I believe the best way to learn to swim, is in the deep end of the pool. I commend him for taking on such a monumental task. Now the trend (and LOTS of things in here seem to be the result of trends) is to "give poor ol' Kev a break". I think I gave poor ol' Kev a break when after five months of being incommunicato, I was still willing to write him a check last week. The down side to all of this, is that for a second year in a row, SignGold can't be represented at the "International" meet. No sponsorship. No booth. No doorprizes.
On a more posative note, I can swing that percentage of our budget over to another meet.
Detroit WILL BE A SUCCESS.
The success of any meet, isn't in the seminars, or the meals, the host(s)or the venue. The success of any meet is a credit to those who attend. I was at Michael Boone's meet, in a blizzard in February. There were like, seven of us. We had sub sandwiches for lunch. But all of us walked out of Mike's shop pumped up, and rejuvinated. It was a success.
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
i am glad to have this ability to comm. with everyone. i have been on the web for 4 days now and can not believe how fast i can get things done. i have made more strides in 4 days than in the last 5 months. Brian, i had no intentions of leaving anyone out. i just thought the idea of no computers was a way to focus on hand drawing lay-outs, pounce them and start having fun. also, i have found out that there is a business side to these meets. so, let the computers be here and lets stop talking about this issue. money makes the world go around, and if i can help in showing the differnt aspects of this great trade we are in to all who are interested, than i will feel good.
Boy, a lot has changed since i was 13 at the 83' meet. but as the say, times will change. So with that in mind, i guess change is not so bad.
please check the events page for our flyer, which will give a better listing for detroit 2004.
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
Ok, Now let's all hold hands and sing: ~Kum-bay-ahh My Lord, Kumbaya~" Love...Jill
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
that reminds me, we are trying to secure some music artist from the mowtown era. hopefully we can get a few, but we will have music at the meet. if any wants to bring an insterment and jam, please do so.
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
i meant MOTOWN. i need to get better at typing.
Posted by Dan Streicher (Member # 4515) on :
Kevin I am glad that you are seeing some of the value of the computer as a tool, it is only a tool...and some use it well some still don't have a clue how to use the tools....glad that this is all taking a positive turn, as it has been frustrating for (I won't say all) but frustrating for me as this could be a great meet....we can all learn something new everyday if we allow ourselves. But Kevin I must warn
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
~Kum-bay-ahh My Lord, Kumbaya~"
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Kevin,
Thank you for the updates and info on the future Mets page.
I did notice that this meet is a 4 day event. The majority of the meets are three day events and some here may have made the assumption you meet was 3 days also. I've been to 5 meets in the last year with varying costs, and spoken to many of the hosts about the costs in hope to one day host a meet here. The cost seems resonable given the amount of time there will be to learn and share information.
I'm going to try to make it out if circumstances allow. (Just the opportunity to discuss paint with Kent is good enough reason for me... ) Rapid
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Dunno]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Applause]](graemlins/clap.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[FYI]](graemlins/fyi.gif)
...Aloha means goodbye too
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
$189 thats only about £100, £25 a day with free food!! I couldn't eat that cheaply per day anywhere in the UK, if you think thats expensive then come here to the land of the $8 a gallon for Petrol (Gas). Shut Up!!!! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
)