Monte's post about raising prices kind of put this topic on the front burner for me. It may be a long post, but if you aren't independently wealthy, it may be of interest. When I was in advertising (the past past 20 years) AdAge and ADWEEK magazine did a special report every year on salaries. It gave everyone in the business a pretty good idea on what others were making/paying. It broke down shops by billings, metropolitian areas, etc. It was all anonymous. No Companies or individuals were named. But if you were an Art Director in NY, you could look and see that a mid-sized shop in NY would/should pay an AD approximately XX amount of dollars. It gave owners a good idea of what they should be paying their staff. Etc. I've only been in the sign biz for 1 year (officially) so, I'm not sure something like this exists in this industry. If not, it should. If so, where can I find it? I know the pricing guide is good for helping price signs within some sort of relevance to other shops, but it's the salary thing that would be handy. The reason this question comes now is I'm beginning to think that the economics of the sign business are somewhat skewed from some-if not many-other industries.
For example: A one-man operation in NYC as a graphic designer can easily clear 6 figures a year if they are good and can hustle.
The owner of a small design advertising "boutique" with 2-3 employees taking home 200K+ would not be very unusual.
Switch gears and let's say an electical contractor with 2-3 full-time employees who keeps busy all the time. He or she could look at taking home 150K+ easily. I'd say the same for a reputable HVAC or Plumbing contractor as well.
So, here's my observations having run a sign shop for a little over a year: a one-man operation would be very hard pressed to take home 100K+/yr. $150K+ would seem impossible.
Are there 2 and 3 person shops where the owner is putting 150-200K in his/her pocket every year? I don't know. Do you?
The point of all this is this: Monte's post is right on. I feel the industry as a whole is wildly undervalued. In advertising, we could charge $1,500 at the very least for a logo design. For the same exact service to a sign client, I'm lucky if I can get a third of that. I'm lucky if the client just doesn't assume it's part of the sign. Monte then mentions Jay Cooke and Dan Swatsky as being 2 examples of folks who ARE getting paid what their services are really worth. (At least that is what I took his mentioning them to be.) Isn't that a bit lop-sided? In an online community of, what, 8,000 people, we can point to a small few who are making the sort of income the work they produce truly warrants? Let me get some feed back. But let me close by saying a few things so as not to **** anyone off. I truly LOVE this business. The folks I've met here and at the 2 meets I've been to are really nice people. Genuine. And extremely talented. I'm not in this business soley for the money. But I'd be lying if I said at this point in my life it wasn't important. With one kid graduating college and one graduating High school, money is indeeed very important. And lastly, this whole post may be moot (to me anyway) because I think I may need to close The Great Barrington Sign Company fairly soon. When I run the numbers, the profit just isn't there. I'm as busy as one person can be. 14 hrs/6 days a week has become my norm. And basically I'm covering my rent, expenses and equipment loans and taking a salary of ZERO dollars. I had an assitant for 4 weeks and the productivity went up for sure. But just enough so to put 5 bills into his pocket each week and a steady zip into mine. Yes, when the equipment is paid off and my use of materials gets more savy to increase profitability, there will be more money getting to the bottom line. But is it worth it? At 48 years old, do I want to work myself to exhaustion day-in and day-out just to make ends meet? Do I have to? Is that the true economics of the sign business or am I just too green in the biz to know HOW to make maximum profits on each and every job. I appologize for the long post. But I'm at a point where I need to either cut my losses and leave the sign business, or figure out if it is possible to make a six figure income as a one or two person shop. And if it is, how.
Thanks for reading. Mark
Posted by VICTORGEORGIOU (Member # 474) on :
Mark, Signs of the Times Magazine publishes extensive surveys including salaries about once a year. Most of that data applies to companies with many employees and probably will not answer your questions about making a living as a one or two person operation. Vic G
Posted by Jack Leyden (Member # 2437) on :
Hey Mark - another great post today!
I know of a couple guys netting 250K+ from their small sign shops, and I know one guy netting close to a million on his big sign company. The dough is there for an entrepreneurial (is that a word?) owner, but there sure isn't any money available for a production employee (graphic artist, fabricator, painter, etc.). Top wage I've seen in Southern California is about $18.00 an hour. Drive an hour south and you can get the same quality craftsmanship for $18.00 a day. Couple of days by boat to the west of here and top wage is about $18.00 a month, paid to people every bit as creative, intelligent, and skilled as any sign shop employee in this country.
By the way - it's not apples to apples when comparing our incomes with those of vocations that demand government approved licensing: electricians, physicians, attorneys, plumbers, engineers, etc. Their trade associations (lobbyists) skew the supply curve.
As for your personal income of not very much - that's to be expected the first year or two in the sign business. For one thing, it takes years to learn how to design and manufacture good signage; and it also takes years to develop and maintain a good body of customers. Hang in there!
Posted by Mike Languein (Member # 319) on :
I'd say you are right on the money, so to speak, Mark. Not very many people in this will admit what they really make, and a lot of them brag (lie) about it at meets - the only year I ever made any bucks at all was my one year at Disneyland where I made $48,000 - on my own, working for someone else and subcontracting the most I ever was able to pull down during busy busy times has held right at $15,000 yearly - like you said; just keeping the wolf away from the door and barely that. The only sign people I've ever known to have a fairly new car, a family, be buying a house had a spouse with The Real Job. Forget such extravagances as health insurance. Of course I mean just starting out -- after the first 30 or 45 years I understand it gets better. Like we were told in school - if you want to have money - go be a doctor. You can do that in 8 years.
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
I do about 25-30g a year now, but you've got to understand the parameters I impose on myself.
I live debt free, which means I'm surrounded by old equipment which is very high maintainance (time consuming). I raise some of my family's food, which uses time. I do my own electrical, plumbing, automotive, etc. It requires alot of knowledge and tools and time.
It's easy to think that if I did signs only, I could make 40g or more, but the line probably is on an upward curve, that is, it's exponential, it gets steeper as you try to earn more. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe more hours would translate into a correllating increase in money. But I've monitored my output in the past, and my productivity increases in the middle of the day, then tapers off.
Also, if all I did was signs, then I'd have to hire others to do my repair stuff, and/or buy new stuff, with the "new stuff" payments. Yee-haw.
I'm not writing this to try and make redneck recruits, no, just give some idea of the money situation here.
Here's some other thoughts I've pondered: (the crowd says More musings, spare us! )I've looked at other trades pulling down money, and alot of them are associatted with debt. I'm not ranting against debt, that's you're own choice. I just wonder if money isn't so closely monitored if it's part of a house loan or such. I mean if people had to write a check for the full amount to the carpenter of electrician that built their house, Woe Jack! Maybe not, I'm just pondering.
Also two other ideas: is there a big emotional and tradition type influence in owning your own house?
I guess the bottom line is this folks: leverage. No wait, LEVERAGE!!! The doctor gets what he/she does because it's pay me or die. And evey one of us only gets a decent wage (if we do) because somebody thinks they can't make money without our services. I know there are exeptions, the artists that do murals and graining in nice homes, or the graphics people that do cool stuff on rods and bikes. But as far as stictly signs goes, alot of it is leverage, and there are new shops popping up everyday, which decreases our leverage. I'm not ranting against newbies in this trade, hey, how could they have known? It looked like a neat thing to get into.
Oh well, enough verbage for now.
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
For whatever reason ( ) I think the problem is that most people haven't decided what, exactly, they want to accomplish...much beyond earning an honest living and maybe having a few creature comforts. This tends to lead to short-term thinking, like focussing more on saving money than on making it...whether buying equipment or materials.
I firmly believe that you can make as much money as you want if you start by (first) actually knowing what you want, then develop a strategy for getting it...set goals, plan, and execute.
No, it isn't all about money...but many of the other things you want for yourself and for your family come much easier with money than without it.
ANYTHING is possible...if you believe it and are committed to achieving it. Faith and discipline are powerful allies.
I fully believe that the average commercial signshop can be 50% more profitable. For a one man shop, that would put $150K per year (per employee) within reach. That's gross sales, Mark, not income...but don't forget that you're building equity in your business (or should be).
Set your sights high Mark, and you'll go farther. There's good money to be made in this business.
[ February 25, 2004, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Hiya Mark, The sign business is not a get rich quick scheme. Just like any other business you have to work the long hours and build sweat equity before you can reap what you sew. The people I know that are earning the $50,000-100,000 salaries served their time. After 5-15 years working for someone else, they went out on their own. It took them another 5-10 years to earn their own reputation and good salary. If you want to make the real money, you better be in it for the long haul.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Few thought Mark.
1 year? Very, very few businesses (in any field) turn a profit after only 1 year. It takes time. You have start-up costs, etc. and to expect to open your doors & suddenly be in the black in generally unrealistic.
As for your working to cover materials, equipment payments... try downloading ProfitWatch from EstiMate at www.pricingmadeeasy.com. You can plug in what you want to bring home, your expenses, and figure out what your hourly rate should be. Then, try the demo of EstiMate. It takes a bit of time to get used to it, but once you do, you won't go back to the pricing guides.
You're already getting your name out there (those radio spots are great!) and building a customer/referral/word of mouth advertising base. You may not seem like business is booming right now, but most people don't trust a business that is brand new and not everyone needs a sign right now. But next year, when they do, their buddy that you did the sign for last week will refer them to you.
Posted by Mark Rogan (Member # 3678) on :
Thanks for the responses, folks. All good. All valid. I know it takes time for a business to turn a profit. Any business. And I sure never looked at the sign biz as a "get-rich-quick scheme" All I'm trying to get a handle on is earning potential in this industry. I hear some folks say that a one-person shop can bill 250,000/year. Some say a lot more. Some say a lot less. And, believe me, I know about building a business and being in it for the long haul. I started an ad agency in 1982 as a one-man shop. In 1999 I had a partner, 90 employees and offices in Chicago and Manhattan. And, therin lies the rub. What puzzles me is the vast differences between what people are willing to pay an ad agency for for creative services and what they are willing to pay a sign company for. Sometimes for the exact same service. I think my big mistake was just jumping into the business with just a year of time spent researching it. Listening to salespeople selling me equipment. I imagine if I had worked for another sign company, I would have seen first-hand the generally accepted fee structures in the biz. I do think my shop is very successful for being officially open for just 8 months. I did a very comprehensive business plan that called for me billing a minimum of 125K this past year. I heard $75 - $100 sq ft was a low-end sign and 125-150 was the higher end. I based my projections on the higher end. But. I have only had 1 client to date that I could come even close to 100sq ft. People just freak out at prices of things. If you look at the Bull's Head Tavern sign at www.gbsignco.com I originally quoted a price of $55/sq ft with the understanding there would be 2 other taverns and all 3 would get 3 new signs each. That put the sign at about $4,500. The sign I was replacing cost him $50.00 Total. Not per sq ft. Ultimately I did the sign for $50/per and made very little money. The amount of time, effort, blood, sweat, tears and creativity that went into that one sign should have brought a price of 8,500-10,000 I feel. And I feel THAT is a bargin. Maybe I am crazy. Maybe I come from a different world where clients would pay $225/hr for my time and creativity. But it's hard to swallow when I'm putting just as much love and energy into trying to create something truly beautiful and unique for a client and being told my time is now only worth 45-or 50 dollars per hour now AT MOST. I've read here before wher people refer to sign making as advertising. And it is. So why, as an industry, do we allow for such disparaging discrepancies in fees? There really is no answer. Not a single, clear-cut one anyway. And I'm not even sure what the point of all this is except to find out if there is a way to recast ourselves in a new way. To educate not just our clients but ourselves as well that what we do is very valuable. It can have huge impact on our client's business. That it goes hand-in-hand with their marketing, promotion and advertising and should command equal respect and equal fees. It sounds like some of us have done just that. But it sounds like the vast majority have not.
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
There's two facets to this business... one is the 'art' - the craft of making signs. The other is the act of making a living.
And we all need a balance of both to make us happy and successful. It's a tightrope at best.
Most of us are in this business because we possess some natural talent. It draws us here. And most often folks with an artistic bent are not very good business people. These two attributes are most often mutually exclusive. They demand the use of different sides of the brain.
Artists by their very nature need to be appreciated and accepted. This is done by giving them work. And the greater the need the cheaper the price. Kinda backwards isn't it.
And I'm no exception.
But there are a few things that drive me. I'm not in this business for the money. I'm in it for the art. But while I don't particularly care about money or wealth I fully realise that I dream very big dreams. And big dreams cost big money. So I make sure we charge what I feel our work is worth to help finance these dreams.
I am also goal driven much more than normal. When I visualise a goal I get rather singleminded about it and do what I have to do to realize it.
I also am very fortunate to be married to someone who understands me and supports me. She is president of both our businesses and handles all things financial. It works for us.
My job is to bring in the money by doing what I love. Janis' job is to keep control of the money.
That is a key to our success.
Another key to our success is to specialise in work which has little competition. High end work. It happens to be what I am passionate about. Massively passionate!
We have worked very hard to establish a larger than life reputation for being a creative force in our narrow corner of the market. This small corner of the market is with little or no competition... a key to success.
Why do something that anybody can do? You will always be fighting the competion instead of spending your efforts doing the very best work you can do.
We have made deliberate choices all through the years. First we worked on developing our skills. Books, travel and research have always been important. We invested heavily in the tools we needed to accomplish our work. For a while we were bent on growth of our company. These days we are putting our efforts on finishing our new shop and studio.
After a period of rapid growth up to a crew of 22 talented folks and multiple jobs going in multiple cities at the same time we made a purposeful and deliberate decision to scale things back. It wasn't what I wanted to do or the pace I wanted to live. I LOVE getting my hands dirty not simply manage other people's work. At the same time I also like directing a small team of folks to help me realise my vision. The scale and detail of our jobs demand this approach.
I like the scale of a small, highly skilled team... like a small musical band... not a full fledged orchestra.
And it's working well!
The heavy investment in a second business and a new shop/studio means we are busy paying down dept for the next few years. Even so our salary is currently in the range we all dream of.
It is possible!
But there have also been some skinny years in our past, especially when we were first starting. We pay all others before we pay ourselves. During years of heavy re-investment back into the business or when the economy was especially slow things sometimes got a little tough. It's never been EASY. But we have always managed to get through and have fun doing it.
Looking back through the years, the very best part of this business is the HUGE satisfaction I have realised by living the dream. I DO WHAT I LOVE AND LOVE WHAT I DO.
And that is success!
-dan
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
quote:And, therin lies the rub. What puzzles me is the vast differences between what people are willing to pay an ad agency for for creative services and what they are willing to pay a sign company for. Sometimes for the exact same service.
Mark
That is truely the rub. Although I proudly consider myself a sign guy - no one else does. And I don't correct them. Even the name of our business leads them astray. And it's on purpose too.
I don't WANT people to think ORDINARY when they think of me or the product we offer. What we do IS special and we charge accordingly.
A sign is a method of conveying a message to a viewer about our client's product or service.
The world generally believes the only way to do this is to paint or stick letters on a flat board and nail this up to the front of their building. And they most often believe that the issue is how to do it as cheap as possible.
I live in this same world... I just won't go there.
-dan
[ February 23, 2004, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
WOW, I needed this post!
All the way from Mark's original question to the input from all you talented people. I have beeen in business since 1982, but moving to a retail location two years ago was like starting over again.
I too love this business, and am not in it for the money or fame.....just to have fun and do what I love. I too have a supportive wife. She has a blackbelt in shopping, but can tighten up the strings when needed. She really knows nothing of the business world, but lends a real common sense to our partnership.
Mark, I have felt like you sometimes, but somthing keeps driving me to keep on! Maybe it's because I gotta do somthing, might as well be somthing I love. My intention has never been to be rich. I just want to pay my bills and have something to give. Not only money, but time. It will be interesting to see how far this thread goes, and maybe I'll bookmark it for future reference.
Warm regards,
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
Hiya Cuz! Well, being broke must run in the family. I just did my books (haha...I know I need to do them every month!) Last year I brought in $31,651.70 in signs. (My best year ever in 18 years) BUT after buying vynull, etc, etc, I ended up as making about $11,000....which is about 1K less than the "normal" year. So frustrating. I feel as if I am just spinning my wheels. I don't care if folks think I'm stupid by giving real numbers here, either. I used to get $1400/month in Social Security benefits for my older kids because their dad is deceased. Since Rachael turned 16, it has been cut down to $700/month. So I have to make that up in signs, and let me tell ya, it ain't easy. I really feel it is time for me to add a part-time REAL JOB with a weekly paycheck. So much for health benefits...I had a plan thru the state which was $30/month. In December I was 15 days late paying the bill (had $2500 outstanding from deposited customers) and there is no grace period. Had chest pains for 2 days in January, went to the ER. My bill of $4900 for 4 hours there is not covered. I don't know how I am gonna pay for my upcoming hysterectomy.... And here I am going to meets with wild abandon. I have come to the conclusion that I MUST increase my prices. My goal, my plan, is to make enuff $$ to pay off my HUGE Visa bill, my house, my truck, my doctor bills, and then spend whatever's left on meets. I don't worry about retirement anymore...I'm sure the stress is gonna kill me anyway! Good Luck my friend. Love-JILL ps...BTW...I spent $800 on COROPLAST! hahaha
Posted by Stephen Faulkner (Member # 2511) on :
Are you a Sign Artist? or Sign Business? If a customer asked you to produce 9000 pieces of vinyl graphics what would you do? There is money in this business tons of it.... how do you get your share? I subed out the 9000 pieces and paid off my $22,000 Edge. If you are the person that is in this for "enough to make a living" and "for the love of the art"... you are not in Business!
edited for Jill.... don't give up, get in there and kick ass! Self employed don't need to be self inflicted poverty.
[ February 23, 2004, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: Stephen Faulkner ]
Posted by Tony Lucero (Member # 1470) on :
Great Post Mark. You are no doubt visiting issues that you have contemplated many times. You fit an interesting profile of age, past business involvement (growing then downsizing) and then finding yourself in situation of putting out production, selling, and in a true sense, wearing every hat in the place. The basic problem is the old "grass is greener" perception. When you look at your situation, which you know intimately, and then compare it to what you see or think you see...the conclusions are obvious. Your "treading water" and you want to get somewhere (especially at our age). Maybe a career shift is appropriate, however the realities of changing require a period of adjustment that can be considered as "starting over"
I used to be in the car wash business, thats where I learned how much business people will "mis-represent" their income. Imagine similarly equipped car washes in the same city, experiencing the same economy, and the same weather, and I washed 4500 cars in July and my "buddies" tell me they washed 10,000. After a long time, I concluded I was in the wrong biz. Now I sell signs to these guys, and all I hear is how tough things are, the low priced guy and the weather are killing them.
One thing to keep in mind is the hidden "fringe" benefits that dont show up on our tax returns. I found that when I force this analysis, I see that I am earning a living, and more importantly, I can always find ways to improve...just gotta actually get motivated enough to implement those ideas. Good Luck... hope that this topic is expanded by others...its meaningful to all of us.
Posted by Joe Cieslowski (Member # 2429) on :
I don't know if this will be helpfull but I tend to think backwards.....or maybe it IS goal setting......
When someone asks me about going into the business of making things, the first thing I ask them is how much money they need to TAKE HOME in a year...tripple it and thats how much stuff you need to sell to reach your goal (of course if your biz is low on overhead and material costs but labor intensive this ratio will be different). In any case, using the 30% formula, to make 50k you would need to SELL 150k of stuff. So....now I have to decide if I want (or can) sell 150,000 $1 things or 7,500 $2 things or one $150,000 thing. I think you catch my drift.
I, personally make my living as a salesman......selling what I make. I want to spend more time making things than selling them so I model my business around selling to about 150 to 200 customers (collectors?) a year. That's about 3 carvings a week. I also now want to sell about 5 house markers a week....thats 250 a year...that's my night job and that cash is going toward retirement.
I think what I'm saying is that I have always been as busy (with a few exceptions) for 27 years as I have wanted to be because I don't need to find a lot of customers. I'm putting in a few more days a year finding customers for the house markers but they sell real fast! LOTS of people own homes!
Works fer me....but as usual, I probably got it all wrong......
Joe, Makin Chips and Havin Fun!
Posted by Steve Racz (Member # 4376) on :
Mark,
First of all, I have seen your web site and your work is beautiful!
Also, your story of your tavern sign rang SO true with me. The first business sign I did in the early 90’s probably took me 120 hours of work (planed, joined , glued up the redwood, carved, painted a pictorial on the sign (two sided sign), mixed a custom colors, built a molding for the irregular shaped sign) and I charged $600.00 I think (not a great hourly wage).
A couple of personal anecdotes.
I have always loved letters since I was a kid (I’m 57 now) and the first time I visited New England in the early 80’s I was blown away by the beautiful signage there, especially the carved gilded signs. In 1990 I attended Jay Cooke’s 3 day carving workshop which started my sign career. When I saw Jay’s shop, I was further impressed by his sign work and accomplishments.
His course was excellent in all aspects. But one thing the course did do was to burst my bubble slightly about making signs. As most of you know, Jay is the consummate businessman in addition to being a talented sign maker. Part of the emphasis in his course was in the business side of the craft. Of course, I didn’t want to hear that part, I just wanted to make beautiful signs and make a good living while doing it. But his course was a real eye opener.
Second anecdote. Every time my wife and I would travel to New England and I would see a sign shop, I would stop in and introduce myself and just try to see what the guy was up to. I remember two different sign shops I visited, although I can’t remember the owners’ names. One was a guy on Route 12 in Vermont, just south of Woodstock (not sure if he’s still there). He worked out of an old building (a converted schoolhouse I think), my dream job / setting. The second fellow was a young guy in Great Barrington MA! His shop was on the main drag as you entered town (I think it was on the left as you entered from the south, wooden storefront, two big picture windows, painted green?, but this was probably the early 90’s so who knows now). The Great Barrington guy was making beautiful carved signs (many in the shop in progress), but was working 7 days a week, long hours and was within DAYS of getting out of the business. He had recently accepted a full time job, not in the sign business, and was looking forward to this new job and saner hours. Life’s ironies at their best, here I am, always wanting to be in the sign business full time and him, anxious to get out and go to a “corporate” job.
I stayed in my corporate job until June of 2003 and frankly the reason was I stayed so long was money. I had climbed the corporate ladder and I was making a good salary, but I was killing myself, working 70 hour weeks plus a daily commute of 2 hours. I was on medication just to cope with the insanity of having to lay off people 12 consecutive quarters (and many of the layoffs were simply because of corporate greed).
If it weren’t for the fact that my wife is working and has health care benefits, I would not have been able to change careers. I could never have made this change without my wife’s support. I’m so happy now. And I’m totally medication free, except for an aspirin a day.
I feel really lucky to be out of that corporate rat race. I miss the money but only to the extent that I would like to buy a few things for the business and I now have to watch every nickel. But as Kissy says, it takes time to get any new business rolling.
Good luck in whatever you decide, but give serious though to the excellent advice of the veterans above. You definitely have the talent and we need more beautiful signs in the world.
Thanks, Steve
Posted by Steve Racz (Member # 4376) on :
... for Jill ... I don't think you're stupid for putting up real numbers, I think you are incredibly brave!
Thanks, Steve
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
Great post, Mark! I'm sorry for your difficulties. I have been self employed all my life, and have basically made squat financially the whole time. I'm way too sensitive about pricing and money. I enjoy the work, but not the burden. My debt is substantial and it will ultimately keep me from acquiring the tools I need to keep competitive. I hope this doesn't happen to you. It's a struggle, most people wouldn't want to make.
I'm at a true crossroad in my life. Do I keep acquiring more debt to stay in business or do I stay where I am and try to whittle it all down.
Fortunately I have Jane to help. And while I do most of the production, she runs all the paperwork and pays all the bills. She always has. Back 10 years ago or so, she started doing most of the pricing, because she could see I didn't have a handle on it all. I know she does a lot better job than me, and although she will ask how much time I might have in on a project and might ask what I think the project should run, she ultimately will charge more than I would have. I sort of hide when people come in to pay for their work, but she takes it in stride, and it must be working, because they still come in.
Raising prices is only a part of the chain of events leading to greater profits. I have had several outer body experiences trying to figure out how we can make more money, because we have the work. I have come to the conclusion that it is very much the nature of the business. For example, if a person comes in to visit and ask questions about a project, the project might be worth "x" amount of dollars, and that customer might eat up a lot of the profit on the job, with continous questions and concerns. This is a bigger factor when you are starting out, because you haven't established yourself as an expert. This is probably the reason most of us put in huge hours, because if you have a small shop and it takes a long time to sell and set up a job, eventually you're going to have to produce the product.
Sometimes I can be curt with customers to try to move them along in the process. I don't want to know the whole story behind the reason why a person might need this sign or that sign. Just place the order and let me get at it.
In smaller markets you can actually have many hats. You can be a salesman, psychologist, teacher, designer, painter, installer, accountant, cashier and yes even a politician. What has helped us raise profits despite the unslaught of "cheap sticky vinyl basement shops" is to learn to recognize projects that are going to lose money and try to build a base of customer who trust us and consider us experts. These folks are more than likely to give you complete control over projects and lesson the time it takes to get started.
We are gradually whittling down debt, but we aren't getting any younger and we have to think about those days when we can no longer pull it off.
My advice would be to not quit right yet, and as some have already stated on this post, the first years you are going to pay out more than you take in. You also have to know when to quit. Hopefully you can weigh through some of what's written on this post and pull out the things that are going to work best for you. I think this business is more peculiar than any other and you can read journals and articles until you're blue in the face, but eventually you will have to taylor design a business that incorporates all that you stand for and believe in. Good Luck!!!!!!
[ February 23, 2004, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Bill Diaz ]
Posted by JohnHurst (Member # 4308) on :
Nice thread Mark.... I've been "in the sign biz" now for 18 months... after having an almost identical history to you.... albeit on a smaller scale. My agency had 3 people in it and I billed out at $125 per hour. I have also been contemplating the EXACT same things you are.... all of the "is this industry retarded or am I expecting too much".
Here's my personal opinion... you and I spent the bulk of our careers thus far in a fast paced and creative environment servicing people and companies that understand the true value and the ROI of advertising and marketing... and more importantly... could pay for it. NOW... we are dealing with smaller companies and busnesses that are struggling the same as you and I are now! We also all know that signage is the BEST ROI money can buy... but to a small business... it can still be a hard sell.
Ordering a sign versus designing an identity package... You can't talk to the local car wash owner with the same terms and jargon that you would use on a VP of Marketing in a major corporation! THAT... to me, is the rub.... and the hard part is putting together your own marketing plan. I would like to ask you if your marketing plan is to do what you want or if it's to fill a niche or to convey market share perception. When I had my agency, everything I did was to make myself look bigger and more important... I even made my best friend wear a suit to a few meetings... told him to just sit there and shut up... just for the perception that I had VP's and such... after a few jobs, companies were impressed that I was only a 3 person shop... they THOUGHT I had 15 or 20 people... and paid me for their perception.
NOW.... I drive around a 24' panel van and have a mobile sign-shop... I brag about it... telling people that I understand they are busy and they can't afford to lose productivity from a vehicle for a day while I letter it... let alone the person they would have to spare to bring me the vehicle... that is one of my value addeds.... I cater to my customer like none of my competition in that way. I use my design skills and print background to convey a larger and edgie perception than any competition... and the people who "get" the perception pay a premium. Although my plans are to build gorgeous signs... I look more like a cocky SOB and have had many a customer say "I noticed your truck/logo... I want to be noticed like that.... that's cool". I'm not saying anything here more than Dan Sawatzky... he has formed an image of his company, believes in it and sticks to it... to the point of NOT defending the fact that he considers himself a "sign guy". He's willing to live the perception he has built.
Believe me... I'm in the same boat as you... I've contemplated trading my panel van in for a brown shirt and a UPS truck... and a steady income with benefits. "Sign guys" have a harsh stereotype... everyone has heard the "I remember sign painter Bob years ago... what a drunk!" Well... I believe that we all create our own realities... I choose to try and break through the stereotypes of the industry and remake my image.
One of my favorite agency sayings is "What we need around here are smaller logos and larger ideas!" You were in the business of creating perception... I am discouraged, but am willing to give this another year and see if I can meet my goals.
Are you discouraged because the money isn't out there... or because you haven't been able to convince them that you're worth it?
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
There's a fellow in our town who does similar stuff to us. He does great work. And he is awesomely talented.
I was in his shop a while back for a friendly visit. There was some great pieces underway in the back. He gave me a little tour.
While there we had a discussion regarding prices. I asked him what he was getting and had a feel for his costs. And what I heard was disturbing.
The signage was high end stuff. Carved and coated foam over welded steel frames. Awesome quality.
As I recall one piece he was selling for $7,000. His cost was about $5,000 not including labor. And he had to ship it. This didn't include shop overhead, heat, light, or reinvestment. His shop rent alone was more than $1200 per month.
And he could do at most three or four of these pieces each month. It didn't make much sense to me. He was working for free.
For a similar piece I would have charged in the range of $10-12,000.
I know the market for this very same type work. He was underselling and hurting himself in the process. He left lots of money on the table.
It is largely a matter of self confidence. And it is critically important to be fair to all concerned, especially you. Don't shortchange yourself simply to make a sale.
-dan
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
This is a great thread, since I have been toying with going on my own. I work for an environmental graphic design firm (www.huntdesign.com), we build nothing, we do planning and design of signage and exhibits projects, and the company I work for does very good, and I get paid well for it. I started working for a one man operation and he made decent money thought he alsoo wrote articles and was part of the sign business as a consultant. I have also worked for mom and pops that had no clue, and see the mistakes they have made, like not growing, or having the confidence to get the good work, they just stagnated in the cheap work wiith thing that they were comfortable with, I went to your website and you do good work and your skills are very marketable, what you need to do is absorb yourself with the high end. WHen you were a Ad Agency, yoou were probably involved with AIGA, GAG, ADC or other design organizations, the same applies with signage, get involved with SEGD and even the AIGA. They are in the business of design and get paid well for it. There are a lot more "sign" people getting paid in the SEGD, you might want to look into it since you posess the design/ad mentality and know that our skills have worth. My boss came out with a great book on the subject as well-
I have to thank Jill for exposing a fact that I have known to be true for many years. There are all sorts of Letterheads, many featured in our sign mags, that exist on 10-20,000 dollars a year after expences. When you consider all the hours put in to end up with so little, the earnings of a waitress at Dennys begin to look really attractive. Consider that the income for a single person on welfare in Ontario is almost $20,000. Somethings not right.
The real crime is that we continue to do the same things over and over, year after year, hoping that things will miraculously change. I can recall several years our accountant would return our income tax form and ask why I continued to keep pounding my head against the wall. Good question, but I really didn't care to face the truth and explore the answers. I loved what I did, and wasn't that the most important thing?
Some of you are idealists. You'll tell us money isn't all that important. Some may even try that old "money is the root of all evil" crap. The real truth is money is neither good or evil. In our society money is the exchange for everything. Poor people cannot help poor people.
After 50 years, I am finally willing to stop feeling quilty about making money. I might be wrong, but having a few extra dollars to squander might even be kinda fun. Have any of you ever felt guilty for wanting more? What about those poor kids in Africa our Moms used to talk about?Will they really be better off if we don't clean our plates or strive for a little more out of life?
Eventually each of us will hit the wall and be forced to look in the mirror and make some tough choices. Some of us need to find fulltime jobs and do signwork as a partime job. Those that continue to use the "can't make that in my area" excuse may actually have to get off the pot and move. Some may choose to deversify your income by finding your spouse a second job. Bet that goes over real big.
So what do we do when we finally get sick and tired of always being sick and tired? Find someone who is doing whatever it is you desire and do what they do. Why do so many of us take advice from friends and family that have less than we do? Avoid negative people like the plaque. Investigate those that give you advice to insure they are the real McCoy.
We have a wonderful asset here with Letterville. There are all sorts of your neighbors that are making money and getting the most they can out of life. And guess what? They are willing to share what they know with you. Some others are not doing so well. They are downright miserable and convinced that life sucks. In their minds, life cast them as victims in an unfair system. These people are also willing to share their ideas. I hope you will all still tolerate me, but I've decided to listen to the people who get to take vacations with their families and friends every year. Just call me greedy! Posted by Barb Schilling (Member # 13) on :
Mark, Hang in there, but develop some "passive" income stream too.
We have been self employed sign company since 1980, full time since 1984. since 1984, Maris has had an outside job for about 18 months. We both also used to teach CPR and First Aid occasionally. ($17.00 per hour-back in the 90's!) But the sign company could not do for us what owning residential rental property has done. We got our first property in 1995 with $10,000 down on a VISA card and a contract for deed. (Thank you Carlton Sheets.) Maris now divides his time about 50/50 between the signs and the rentals. (we have 21 units.) The sign biz provides about $25,000. per year in salary and benefits. Not enough to raise 3 kids, or plan retirement. The rental property is filling in the gaps AND making retirement possible. (Maris just turned 50, I will be celebrating 20th anniversary of 29th birthday.) I also look for about 15 years of running a sign shop WITHOUT playing mommy to be a help. But that is still about 6 years away. If it wasn't for the love of signs, and being able to be self employed out of our residence, I would not be doing this just for the money.
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
Steve
Very powerful words! You're right, money is not the root of all evil...LOVE of money is. I think each of hope for a miracle job to come in and pay all our bills in one fell swoop.
I think the passion of these people is similar to others in their industry, but, nobody beats the gritty passion of a real artist or craftsman. My competitor once told me that he just wanted to "build his business to a point where someone would be willing to write a check to buy him out" That is not passion. Yes, most of us would have to seriously ponder a lucritive offer of big money, and may even accept. But, that's not why we do it. It is so addicting, it's a rush when the phone rings, and we find out it's that guy we've been beating on for months. Or when someone comes to us totally lost, they walk out of our shop with a smile, and leave a deposit check behind.
So, yes, it can be about the money. But, I can think of steadier ways to make a living, (LOL)
Regards,
Posted by Jon Harl (Member # 4427) on :
I believe Kissy is right - it takes time to build a business. I also feel that one of the mistakes in the sign companies that aren't quite making it is an eagerness to please the customer. It's funny how no matter what you quoate for a price the customer will normally have some resistence. Some don't, but quite a few will want a bargain, price wise. It's normal for them to want more for less money. We sign makers seem to under value our time and product. The key is to have a clear handle on our costs and what it takes to produce a sign. Jay Cooke keeps a history of the types of signs he produces-time and material. He then can charge accordingly-with confidence-for each specific job. I'm striving for confidence in my pricing. I'm not so concerned (finally after 20 years in the trade) with what others charge. They don't do work like me and they don't have the expenses I do. I never bid against other sign companies. I'm never the lowest bidder. I have to offer more than just price for my sign work. In the end, for me, it's making sure I charge what I need to charge to be profitable. As soon as I put "no thank you" in my vocabulary the power to be profitable came alive. This is just one of the attributes a successful sign business needs. I like this posts because I'm getting different views on a very important and complex problem.
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
Hey Steve... You know I like to expose myself! Love....JILL (determined to do better or die trying!)
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
This is great therapy. So many are trying to get a handle on pricing. Dan is correct in that confidence has a lot to do with it. I wish I had it all over to do again, knowing what I know now. We have been trying to increase our pricing year after year a few percentage points higher than most other services in our area to make up for the years that we worked for too little.
I have always wondered why 1 person would make more than another for seemingly the same effort. I know you can lose money making high end projects just as easily as you can for making a cheaper product.
We always attack the Drs. and lawyers for charging a lot, but maybe the customer views our work as fun or hobby-like and therefore not worthy of high prices. They view other professions as more serious in nature. If your profession deals with life or death as with the medical profession, security and risk as in the insurance profession or justice as in the legal profession, you tend to be perceived as being more important than someone who is trying to make a living based on creativity. If you've been in a car accident and are seriously injured you don't question medical help to save your life and you hope your insurance coverage protects you so you don't have to seek legal help.
My customers are not going to shrivel up and die if I don't pinstripe their new vehicle. If on the other hand you have a business that has just purchased radio time, or an ad on the TV or newspaper about your new business, you would be crazy not to have a sign saying "Here I am!" The other ad costs would be negated if they can't find you. If a customer is explained this and shown examples of the importance of your service, you're on your way to demand a good price as well as the respect you deserve.
The more important your service is and the more complicated the process is to build your product, the more money you can demand. If a new business is locating in an area with other complicated signage, they will find it necessary to purchase a comparable product or risk going out of business.
In my area I have tried to raise the bar for the quality of signage that becomes the norm. That way I can make a more complicated product and distance myself from a competitor who doesn't have the ability to make what I can. I have had my work cut out for me though, because when I started there were businesses around here that had magic marker drawn paper signs for there 1 and only sign. I started out with virtually nothing and I didn't have a lot of polish. It's been a long uphill struggle, but I have raised the bar and I am still trying to improve this business. My shop needs a lot of attention and I need to clean up my act in certain areas. I feel I have the right to raise my prices to make these things happen, and I hope my competitors will do the same so we can all enjoy a better stanard of living.
I think discussing it will hopefully start the ball rolling for all of us. We deserve a pat on the back. It may be a fun way to earn a living, but it's hard to be creative day in and day out. The way we're taught to view art and creativity in our schools is very arbitrary. If you have a gift in understanding science and math and you get a good grade in those subjects, the public will say you worked hard to earn those accolades. But if you have a gift in understanding how to make a beautiful work of art the public will say your talented. This often implies that you don't have to work for it -- that somehow you came out of the hatch knowing how. It's no wonder why our customers have a hard time evaluating and respecting our efforts. But if we all keep raising the bar we will in effect improve our environment and become the important cog in the wheel of commerce that we deserve to be.
Posted by Mark Rogan (Member # 3678) on :
Awesome! So I guess we're all in agreement then. Tomorrow morning we all start charging $125/hr for our services, right?
That's tounge-in-cheek guys.
But I have TRULY apprciated everyon'e feedback. Steve, I truly thank you for your heartfelt response especially while you're recovering. Get better soon.
Well, I went to bed last night feeling like it was time to call it quits and go back and find a job in advertising. But tonight I'm going to bed feeling knowing I'm going to give it another year. And during this next year I'm going to give it 110%. I'm going to keep coming to you for ideas. Help. Encouragment & support. I'm going to never settle for "Good enough." Good enough is neither good nor enough. I'm going to learn glass gilding and glue chipping at the Gold Rush next month. Spring is coming. The days are getting longer (thank God!) and I am going to advance confidently in the direction of my dreams (to quote Thoreau. I used to have the following taped to my wall over my desk. Tomorrow, it goes back up.
I learned this, at least, by my experiment: that if one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours. He will put some things behind, will pass an invisible boundary; new, universal, and more liberal laws will begin to establish themselves around and within him; or the old laws be expanded, and interpreted in his favor in a more liberal sense, and he will live with the license of a higher order of beings. In proportion as he simplifies his life, the laws of the universe will appear less complex, and solitude will not be solitude, nor poverty poverty, nor weakness weakness. If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them.
Peace and love, Mark
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
I'm excited about the Letterheads that are finding new markets for their talents. Ryan Young is a good example. If the usual market for custom graphics isn't attractive, why not do gun stocks or try to market your pinstripe designs as artwork? With the current Kustom Kulture fad, all sorts of new opportunities are happening.
Same with signwork. Instead of competing for the same old jobs that are no longer profitable, consider the antique sign market, interior murals for yuppie kids and their parents, faux finishes on metal garage doors...etc. etc. Find yourself a small pond and become a big fish in that pond.
Help me out here. What else can we use our signmaking skills for to generate new business?
In Mazeppa, I saw tired old metal cabinets turned into works of art that I know the public would pay big bucks for. Find a need and fill it!
[ February 24, 2004, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
The road to success is often a bumpy one. Most of us in the sign business had so much to learn when we started. I know I did!
First, I knew nothing about signs, or painting or carving or welding or anything. Good design is something learned over time. I knew NOTHING about business. And I was so impatient to get going!
It took me years to figure out that money I brought in to the business wasn't mine. First I had to pay the bills, cover expenses and reinvest in the business. After the taxes I then got the pidly amount that was left.
Initially I underbid most jobs. I know for a fact that my competition HATED me and with good reason too!
In the first years when I was starting out there were many times when I wondered how we would ever cover our bills. And there were times when there simply wasn't enough. Those were times when I had to cash in the pop bottles and go through the couch looking for enough change to buy groceries for my family. Been there - done that. I've bartered signs for food at a local restaurant. And it fed us when we needed it.
I've been up and down. I understand the frustration of working harder than anybody I know and realising very little for my efforts.
This I know by experience.
But I also experience DAILY the joy of creating wonderful projects with my hands, mind and heart. Over time I have learned not to trade this in merely for the joy of doing it, but instead to insist that I be paid for this valuable commodity. And be paid well!
For the work we do with such passion from the heart is worth much more than work done simply to make a dollar.
-dan
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
OK Stevo, funny you should ask now, I just wrote down some more ideas 20 minutes before reading your response above.
I've had alot of ideas that I'm jazzed about lately, but this morning, reading Dan's response where he told of dedicating time each week to improving his abilities was like a confirmation that I should do the same. However I realized that I should kinda limit or guide my experiments/learning into ways that are related to ways that I'm allready making money (wages). If time and space permits, I might also tell of my more fringe ideas, but we'll see...
Some ideas: I have an 8' long lumber rack on my truck. In this part of the country, they're called ladder racks. Anyway I want to make an illuminated sign that's about 8" tall and 8' long, with my co name on it. It will be lit with neon, like the hip street cars have below. I had a quote from another shop of (I think) $91 for transformer and tubes.
I've done afew store windows that were spray painted on some of the lettering. At night it became a backlit sign, looked real nice. Some of the surrounding artwork was one shot heavily thinned with linseed oil, which looked like a stained glass window. So my idea is this: Since spraying on site is a real hassle, I wish there was a wide, clear, lower tack, enamel receptive vinyl I could spray signage on, the install at the customer's place. I'm aware of translucent vinyl, but paint offers me so many more posibilities.
Years ago, when I was 18 or something, I did an experiment. I took one of those slide projectors from the '50's and projected an image onto a big sheet of clear plastic. That kind of plastic is still available, I think it's called acetate, it's real slick on one side and rough or etched looking on the other. Anyway, I projected onto the rough side, focused it, and presto! it was a crystal clear sharp image on the other. I never did anything with the idea, but I thought a store owner could mount a projector near the cieling, then click it on at night, pull down a rolled up sheet of said plastic, and bingo, instant, backlit, changeable window ads. I had never seen a large screen TV at the time, I'm guessing that's sorta how they work.
If I could make a big enough sand blaster, I might find some rocks, blast messages like bible verses or other quotes into them to sell as garden accessories.
OK here's the fringe: I've been wanting to get into vehicle graphics, but I want to offer something different than all the flames and skulls and "ooh-bad"stuff. I don't want to sound too condescending, but I'm wondering if there's a market for artwork with more depth, philosophy, and meaning to it. So when a freind ordered a magnetic sign for the back of his van, I cut loose. It took a couple of tries, but I got what I wanted. It's like a form of surealism, but I call it "intersections". Probably not the first to do it, but it delivers the message. I don't have a digital camera, and the 35mm film isn't developed yet, so a brief desciption with words: The images of a globe, a 2x4 stud wall, and a blueprint are all relavent to the theme he wanted. I painted so that the images are superimposed over each other. You can see each one clearly, but where they meet, you can't tell which one is above the other, they intersect.
I wanted to start making paintings in this style, maybe sell prints, I dunno, gettin' carried away, loving the themes I was thinking of. Then a local guy talked to me about doing some graphics on the walls of the motorcycle shop he's opening. I thought maybe I could make a few of the paintings, on hardboard, something other than canvas, and display them in the showroom. They would be related to motorcycles, or that crowd, and if someone was interested, they could buy it, then I'd make another one.Save him money and give me an audiance. Sounds risky though. Back burner? hmmm...
The tag or sticker that comes with each painting will say: "Intersections... an ongoing series of illustrations whereby artist Jim Donahue expresses the convergance of the abstact & the physical, the eternal & the temporal, and the spiritual & the secular."
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
I wanted to make this a separate response, as it's other subjects. Mostly questions I guess, and I'm not being implicit or anything, just wondering.
150 G's a year in sales. Man, what an undertaking. I got my calculator out, and here's what it says: with no vacations, that's 52 weeks. Devided into 150,000, that's $2,884.6 per week. devide that by 5 days and you get $576.92 per day. I know this is sales and not take home, but it's also a one man shop.
What would SURELY wipe me out is the unexpected stuff. Even if I geared my efficiency up to bring in that kind of sales, I couldn't be consistant about production. Look at some of the posts here, there's often someone asking "hey whatta ya do when THIS happens?" I'm no different, I get bizzaro-here-to-fore-never-heard-of-events myself. How do you see 'em coming??? The missed product delivery, the customer that misses an appointment, etc. And that's just OTHER peoples goofs, not to mention my own.
Maybe I'm missin' it, maybe the trick is to knock out $800 in productivity on "normal" days to make up for lesser days. I'm an ex druggie, and I mean lots of the really hard stuff, so it's entirely posible that something's blowing right by me here, and I do remember what DOUG Allen has said before on this topic. He doesn't seem the kind to play fast and loose with the truth. Still, Even if I managed that much in sales, I can see a mountain of work backin' up in the shop.
Today I realized something else: before I made it sound like the prolifferation of machines was the reason for so much competition, but entry level in this trade has always been easy. Don't get me wrong, if there's anybody that has an idea how involved this art can be, it's me. But then as now, if you didn't know much, it just showed in the signs you made. You still made them.
Bill Diaz said some relevant things about people's perception of our importance.It's probably been mentioned before, but today I thought of getting actual price quotes from other advertising mediums, to have when making sales.
Posted by Stephen Faulkner (Member # 2511) on :
You don't have to do it alone James... sub off what you don't need to labor over and concentrate on your specialty... banners for me were a waste of time but subbing them off I could get a 200% mark-up (or I wouldn't do them).
I use this formula James... more like reality 46-48 work weeks a year avg. 24 BILLABLE hours/weekly (hours you actually get paid for) $150,000= $125/hr. in my glory days $10,000/week was average. the answer to Steve's question about alternatives to this bisiness... as many as there are people here. Just look at one inademate sp? object, like around here all the store front ice boxes look like crap. I knew a kid back in the 80's who use to go around refurbishing them... later he got all the fleet trucks and signage for that company. I know he was paid well for a service no one else wanted to do.
[ February 24, 2004, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: Stephen Faulkner ]
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Stephen, I got an e-mail this morning that was similar to your response, but in it the man said to get good equipment.
Are we talkin' plotters here, printers, both? would a 24" plotter do? Is this kind of income from mostly vinyl?
Big phone book ad? mostly referals?
My reply wasn't to imply that it can't be done, just tryin' to figure out some of the details.
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
I think that to achieve the kind of numbers we would like to in this business you don't just have to raise your prices.
That's only ONE step.
You also have to select the better paying jobs and even specialize in a unique type work. If you keep on doing the same kind of business as everyone around you it wille be tough to raise your prices very high. You have to be able to offer something to your customers that justifies what you are asking.
This isn't done without a great deal of thought, research, practice and time.
But it is possible.
I do very unique cartoon concrete sculptures and signage. It's a specialized and narrow market, but there's very few folks doing it, But there's certainly enough demand to keep the crew and I busy and then some. Even a waiting list. And our customers are willing to pay excellent dollars for our work.
There's some folks doing oldfashioned gold or glass pieces that fall into the same category who keep themselves busy and make good money doing it.
Same goes for some carvers.
And I know there's pinstipers who do very well and command a good buck for their work.
As a muralist I did very well in years past, doing nothing but historical murals. And I was able to charge enough to make it pay very well.
It takes time to establish the reputation and clientel to do the specialty work alone. 'Normal' signwork would fill in the gap.
All this being said, I also know of 'starving' artists who do all of the above. And many do top quality work. Why is this??? Because they don't realise they are selling themselves short. Often its a lack of confidence or simply poor business.
-dan
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Dan, right now that sounds like the most concise reasonable explanation. I say that because the new phone book just came out, and there's something like 72 sign shops listed. This for the Knoxville area, which is not very big.
Also, I have to add that in the e-mail I mentioned earlier, the last thing the man mentioned was a winning attitude, which his customers wanted to be a part of.
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
Just a quick note...I've skimmed over this thread and hope to come back later to it, but for now I must add this:
What Dan has said sounds the most logical and he has mentioned several other individuals and areas of specialization. What we all have to keep in mind also is that these people (Dan being the foremost example) are extremely good at what they do. Don't expect to do mediocre work and carry off the majority of the high end jobs and be able to demand top dollar for what you do.
In my area I am known as the most expensive sign man around, and yet I probably charge less than many on this BB. We don't do a wide range of work, but hopefully, get paid resonably well for what we do. My drawback is that I tend to get lost in the process and give the client more than he paid for...which is good for him but not so good for me.
Great thread. I will go back to reread each contribution later.
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Wow, a lot lot of great replies. This topic is going to get printed and filed. I just wanted to add that at a previous employer we did have daily financial goals. We expected to generate a minimum of $800 a day in billable work with 2 people. Most days we hit the goal. Some days were better, some worse, but, it averaged out. On a good job, I could knock out 24 Tractors in 3 days, start to finish - 2 doors, reg. numbers and air shield. We charged $175 each. That averages out to be $700 per day for 1 person. We had one or 2 of these per month. Throw in a few banners and some no parking signs and you can easily approch $1000 per day or more. Oh, and competition had nothing to do with our business. Our phone book had countless sign shops & quick print centers. Within a 15 minite radius, there were at least 10 other shops that offered similar services. Focus on what you do best, offer great service and charge accordingly. Most importantly, be presentable and have fun while doing it.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by Stephen Faulkner (Member # 2511) on :
James... my best years ($180,000-$350,000) came from Fleet Graphics 95% Vinyl, at the time a 20 year reputation as a sign guy turn vinyl nerd, and direct marketing (face to face with the end user) and no yellow pages.
That said it matters not what you sell but how, profits come from how you manage yourself and your business. Being all things to all people just ain't smart for a one man gig. So you figure out what you know and excell at then find those that NEED you (most won't realize it till they meet you) then prove your abilities and follow up on every job.
In the fleet graphics business 40% of it was not applied but I personally delivered them to the person that needed them (not just some shmuck at the front door) every delivery resulted in more orders. Personal service these days is more popular than ever before.
There is no reason why the same can not be applied to selling plastic dog turds or whatever, Or like Grandad would say..."find yer niche an' scratch it"!
[ February 24, 2004, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Faulkner ]
Posted by Raymond Quick (Member # 2649) on :
What a great thread. After reading through it I am glad I never went into my own business as I have a poor head for money. The job I have lets me play at being a sign maker, play in the wood shop I have, and play at electronic repair. It is a great job as no two days are the same. I make 34,000 a year, 4 weeks vacation, have two months sick leave if something happens, great medical and a good retirement plan, only 1625 more days to go.
The only thing I don't get to do is go to letterhead meets, something I hope to change. I do envy those of you that work on great signs, something I will never get to do.
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Mark, $125 an hour may not be as tongue-in-cheek as you think!! You can make as much money as one person with 2 arms, 2 legs can. But this I know, only you can determine if your willing to work that hard.
I have busted my tail since I was a kid. I left home when I was 16. I did not finish school and I made a lotta poor choices. I got in this business in 1988 (after working for 2 years in a predominantly electric sign shop), because the Lord gave me artistic talent and because of His grace alone. I scrounged and cleaned houses, raked yards and delivered USA Today. I had to get a second job like that every winter. My big girl's Dad deserted us, but I just kept buildin' this business. I started out in a 10x16. I worked out'a that 'til 2000. I now have a 30x40.
For several years I could not, then would not show a profit because I thought I would have to pay in a lotta taxes. For the last 10 years I've shown a profit and though I have to pay in state taxes up to $400, I get EIC back. I started out grossin' $9,000 a year and showed a loss, lol. I only gross about $38,000, but most of it is now profit. My next goal is to get a plotter and put this computer to work for me!!
I put my oldest daughter thru 6 years of private school, graduation, and 1 1/2 years of college and payed for her wedding. I gave her my blazer and made her car note as long as she was in school, as well as gettin' her this 'puter, while I drove an' old '78 pick-up for a work truck. We never got any child-support . . .it was all signs. I have paid off 3 90-day notes and 4 or 5 2 year notes.
My youngest daughter has made it to 9 years old. I hope to home school her. I reckon we will both live to get her married too. Her dad is unavailable as well, but 'til she was about 6 I had him workin' for me puttin' up signs to work out his child-support
I have worked the most insane hours and I have worked too cheap. I have painted signs to prove to some "man" that I can. I have walked away from very few jobs on acount'a that same silly pride as well as need of work..
I have always approached people in a business like manner and I have used single-working mother status much the same way as a man who says "I gotta family to feed".
Mark, I am drivin' an old '93 1500 chevy king-cab now, with 295,000 miles on it. But it runs like a sewin' machine I gotta shop full of hand & power tools, a compressor, all paid for. Like James, I HATE debt. If I can't pay for it right-out, I reckon I can't get it.
I look at all the people on some of my job sites drivin' brand new trucks. I know what kind'a fine house they live in. They gotta pontoon boat and they are on the river every sat. I also see the worried, stressed look on their faces during the week. I know some of 'em gotta truck note about $500 a month, as well as outrageous things they "have to have". Most people who look like they are "makin' it" are simply not living within their means.
I really believe that the Lord gave me this gift and therefore it is mandantory that I use it as wisely as possible. Not to rob people but to get what the in-demand work is truly worth. Then I can give back to Him not only financially but in time as well.
Don't give up on your business after only one year. As someone said, it is not unusual to not show a profit for a coupl'a years. I wish I had had all this information and wonderful people to connect with from the beginning!! I would have already realized the self-confidence and value of the service and product and I would be futher ahead now.
Anyway, ain't nobody ever drowned in their own sweat! Contrary to some of today's youth, hard work will NOT kill you!!
Good luck in business Mark!!
[ February 24, 2004, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: Sheila Ferrell ]
Posted by DeWayne Connot (Member # 4417) on :
Fantastic ideas everyone, I just had someone from the VILLE e-mail about this same topic, maybe this post influnced him, anyway I looked at his web page and noticed as many of you have said that he had a "shotgun approach to the sign business" Colonel Sanders said it ----do one thing and do it best-----
I pinstripe because I can, and grew to love it, I really wanted to be a sign painter even in High School, because I loved the way fonts came together and transformed a plain board into a wonderful work of art.
However I have a wife and three children, I pay close to $700.00 a month for health insurance, and have helped two of my children thru college to the tune of another $700.00 a month. I personally couldn't see a way to make enough to pay those kinds of bills plus a mortage and everthing else that comes from living in the comffy suburbs, doing signs. Yet here I am billing $80-90.00 an hour for Pinstriping, and I don't have a shop and the overhead that goes with it. Like Dan S., I found what few others were doing and I learned to charge for my time, however as in anything else there is the ---Law of deminishing returns, if you charge a thousand dollars each, how many can afford you? If you charge ten dollars you have a much larger base, somewhere in the middle of cost and profit is a place where the price stops the customer from purchasing your product, there is a pinstriper in my area raised his prices until he basically priced himself out of the pinstriping business.
If you love what you do all else will take care of itself, If you work for money you will not last long doing so, while all else falls apart around you.
Just my 2cents worth
DeWayne Connot
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Just to be clear, I don't hate debt. Actually, I think there are those that have used debt carefully to get equipment they need to better provide for themselves. Living with zero debt is a "game" that requires alot of attention. It's sorta like DeWayne's reply above where there's a point where the efficiency falls off and you'd better be in it for some other reason.
The way I see it, in this time and this place, debt is THE LIE that hides a bad economy. I don't care if the Reaganites or the Clintonites, or even the Bu****es are saying the economy is great, I think otherwise.
You drive down the road, you see new houses, each one has two shiny SUV's parked out front. But my guess is that they're all "upside-down". That is, if you took everything they have, (assets) and sold it, it wouldn't be anywhere near what they still owe (liabilities).
That's what I mean by the lie. Things look OK, but they're not. Man, if you could only for one minute see some of these modern developements through 19th century eyes. Just flat out incredible. But for all of it what do we have?
The way I figure it, in a place this advanced, a person ought to be able to work 4 days a week, and live comfortably. 5 days a week, you'd be on your way to wealth. But the diseases, scams, tort corruption, overt and hidden taxes all make that imposible.
I'm wondering if we'll come to what I call the awakening. I don't want to be another doom and gloomer, so let's just say that it happens gradually. The way I see it, we're running out of wiggle room. Up 'till now, there has always been something more that can be stretched to keep this veneer propped up. I would say that 3 categories have been involved, but they're about maxed out. The first is debt. you can only get yourself so far in debt, with anything that resembles sensibility anyway. The second is hours. people are working more hours to keep their ship afloat, but you can only work so many hours in a week. Having your spouse work is just another version of putting in more hours. The last is education. But for most, there is a limit to how valuable you can make yourself in your feild.
As time goes on, the bad economy will drive the cost of living beyond what most folks can pay, and they'll get to "the awakening". Lots of 'em. They won't be able to borrow, educate, or work enough to keep up with it.
And THEN my freinds, they'll wonder how it happened. We could all cite individual factors. But most of them would be secondary causes, part of a chain reaction.You need to get back to that first cause, that neutron source that brought us to critical mass, if you will.
Flame me, do whatever, but it's my responsibility to tell you that it's because people have departed from the God that created the heavens and the earth.
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
Raymond makes a very good point...
quote:Don't expect to do mediocre work and carry off the majority of the high end jobs and be able to demand top dollar for what you do
This is a critical element in getting top dollar for your work. And this takes a while to achieve...
First it takes PASSION... Passion to learn, passion to practice and a passion to be the best.
I would compare it to being like an Olympic or world class athelete. It takes years of practice and dedication. Lots of practice and learning.
It also means you focus on one aspect of the business which interests you. Unless you have the ability to manage a large crew with separate areas of expertise, it would be hard to be a full service shop and still be world class in a specialty of the business.
I had the pleasure of spending a couple of days in Rick Glassen's shop during a Conclave meet a while back. What I saw there was amazing. I saw some of the very best gold work in the world. It was mind boggling! This was a brand new world to me, I scarcely even knew it existed prior to that weekend. And it inspired me beyond words.
Rick was passionate about his craft and it showed. I witnessed a fabulous collection of gold work, tools, antiques, materials and techniques. His passion showed as he excitedly shared his latest findings with the group assembled.
Overhearing bits of conversation through the weekend I was amazed at every turn. The prices commanded by his shop's work went into the 10's of thousands. He was undoubtably one of the foremost experts in his field.
In one brief conversation he smiled at me and quietly confided "The good stuff is all hidden away to make room for the event." I can scarcely imagine what I missed.
He continued to seek out knowledge and learn with that same passion until the day he died.
This is the passion of which I speak. And this is the same passion I have for my own craft. My bookshelves overflow with hundreds of volumes which contain tidbits of knowledge and inspiration for past and future projects. I constantly search new tools and methods to achieve current and future projects.
I eagerly seek out others who enjoy this same type work to learn from them and given the opportunity, share what I have discovered.
I practice my craft daily and constantly strive to become more skillful and more imaginative. I take great joy in daily progress with my employees on our projects.
I greatly enjoy where I am in my journey as an artist and look forward with great anticipation to what I might possibly achieve in the future!
I wish this same success for all who passionately seek it!
-dan
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
As a GENERAL statement, the SIGN business for the little guy, is a big LOSER! Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
DeWayne,
quote: do one thing and do it best
There's a lot to be said for versatility in this business, too. Many times customers will inquire if you can also do _______ (fill in the blank) for them and being adept with many techniques is always a plus.
What I've always enjoyed the most about this line of work is the challenges it presents. From the get go, I've tackled a wide variety of projects. Airbrush murals, logo design, hand lettering, vehicle graphics, pinstriping and more. I'm considered artistic by most people and am given some high marks and compliments for my work, but it takes a while to get to that point in a sign career. It involves a certain amount of passion for the craft, as Dan mentioned. Without it, hanging in there long enough to build up a customer base and develop a solid reputation for quality work can be a nightmare.
Many of us here live in rural areas where limiting ourselves to doing one thing can be difficult. Sure, having a niche is a wonderful thing, but for someone like Mark who is reasonably new at sign making, finding that niche may take some more time.
Striving with your career and worrying about how to pay the bills is not a fun experience, but (I know I'm gonna get flamed for this) the situation is not exclusive to the sign business. It's a competitive market, there are many small and new shops opening more frequently since the advent of vinyl graphics, and regardless of how much passion we may have for the work, without good business sense and a sound product to sell, it can fail like any other new business can.
At one point, each of us here has made a choice to do signage, pinstriping, airbrushing, etc as a career. A source of income. A job. Some days I am thrilled with that descision and other days I could kick myself for it. Despite how much I love what I do and how much I strive for excellence, there are going to be days when it's just time to do the drudgery stuff and pay the bills. Sure, given the choice, I'd have a line of Harleys out in front of the shop, but there's just not a large market for it where I live. High end work is great for the soul, but scarce at times.
Steve mentioned how being complimented for our work can give us a great feeling of worth, but all the kudos in the world won't put food on the table, especially if you're just starting out. They become a plus later, when the demand has built up for your work. It's a tough process to go through, but well worth the time and patience required.
Hang in there, Mark. Given your past experiences in design and the quality of your work after just one year in the sign biz, I think you have a lot more going for you than against you. It just takes a while to develop it as a business.
Rapid
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
Ata girl, Sheila, you're an inspiration!
Posted by Richard Swartz (Member # 372) on :
Great post and great topic.
I too have had similar frustrations. It is mind boggling to me that the industry continually complains about income and yet seems satisfied to keep things as is and just keep on complaining. An ad agency cannot provide its customers the same ROI that sign companies can. Yet ad agencies are proud to charge those "outrageous" fees. The sign industry is stuck on a time and materials mentality instead of selling the product for what it's true worth is - a solution to a problem, a way for a business to increase its sales, etc. If ad agencies charged time and materials, their $2000 projects would turn into $400 projects. The industry needs to better educate the marketplace to the value of signs and provide a more professional perception to its clients. If customers were truly educated as to the power of their signs, we as an industry could easily charge twice as much as we are now. But it seems like everyone is always afraid to raise their prices for fear of not getting a job because they weren't the lowest price. I've implemented a marketing program over the last couple of years that attempts to educate the market on the importance of using proper design techniques (Mike Stevens principles), how much more effective a sign would be if it is properly designed, I've written and printed a pamphlet entitled, "How To Choose The Sign Company That's Right For You" which subjects such as, "four common errors and misconceptions that business owners make when purchasing a sign", "10 killer questions to separate the pros from the pretenders", "unlock the full potential of your sign-the power of advertising" and I send out a monthly e-newsletter trying educate the marketplace on the value of signs. I provide an analysis that shows the traffic count that passes by a business everyday, how much money those people are already spending on the products/services they sell and show them how much their income could increase if they attracted only 1 new customer a week because they noticed their sign. The numbers are staggering. My goal is to be the highest priced sign company around, but to back that up with outstanding quality and outstanding customer service. I just wish the industry would realize what it is we really provide and to charge accordingly. I think that USSC and ISA have done a nice job lately in trying to educate the industry, but then it is our job to take that the next step and educate our clients. Everyone would be better off if we all stopped complaining and simply raised our prices. Our products are worth it.
Posted by JohnHurst (Member # 4308) on :
From the post that started this thread.......
quote:Originally posted by Mark Rogan: .....I'm beginning to think that the economics of the sign business are somewhat skewed from some-if not many-other industries.
Are there 2 and 3 person shops where the owner is putting 150-200K in his/her pocket every year? I don't know. Do you?
....I'm at a point where I need to either cut my losses and leave the sign business, or figure out if it is possible to make a six figure income as a one or two person shop. And if it is, how.
From everything thing I'm reading here.... the sign "Industry" is more like a bunch of individual pationate people that either "shotgun" their approach to business, as DeWayne pointed out.... or their single minded experts withinin a given focus of the sign/identification/sculpting/decorating/painting "industry".
Are there 2 and 3 person shops clearing 150k? It would seem that there are... again, mostly single minded experts within a given focus. Look at Sawatzky, Connot, Glawson.... these people will be my models and mentors... Not "FastSigns" or "Kinko's"
The rest is all marketing and determination... mostly determination.
Thanks all who participate in this eye opening thread... It's helped me realize that I do NOT want to be a starving artist... I want to be a specialized expert and a professional who gets paid to be that expert.
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
James, sorry I mis-quoted you . . . I have used loans many times to deal with nessecities. I never live beyond my means.
I love to listen/read/talk politics, liberal & conservative both. But most of that crap is just . . . .well, it's crap because the doom and gloomers don't jive with what I see everyday!
Also, even tho' I see alotta people live beyond their means and have debt out the wazzu, I also see them workin' like pack mules to pay them off. Wether they are living beyond their means or not, it does'nt matter . . .they are borrowing, spending and working To me this means a good economy. I believe the economy is great in my area. Everything around here reminds me of the boom towns around Dallas in the late 70's. (By the way, when I went out there in Sept it was STILL boomin'.) When I see people building new stuctures for their growing business, new houses, when houses don't stay on the market long and they are sold, when all this generates even more work for me, I begin to realize, sometimes I don't get swamped with work because I'm too cheap, I get swamped because of the demand and I can then name my price. That, for me bro, is a great economy!! If I continue to use the boom wisely, I will have little or no debt, have some savings, build a new house myself, and be able to get better health insurance.
Ray, I would like to be known for a specialty or niche. But as you described so well, I have enjoyed being versatile in my services, and it has been profitable for me to do so, especially when there was little competition. However, other sign shops are in the area are growing. I choose not to see them as competition, but as an asset to my work that will soon allow me to get into the things I really wanna do, while I send them what they wanna do. So far this is the relationship that we all have begun to realize as benificial in my town.
Someone mentioned they're glad they are not self-employeed because of the health insurance benifits and I must admit this is a big concern of mine. There again is an excellent reason to mark-up every action, even breathing in the shop, lol. I'm going to start marking-up thinking and posting too . . .as these procedures have been adding to my business savvy, lol
Finally, Meee'ster Deeee'aaaaz, mucho gracious amigo four theeee kind werds.
[ February 25, 2004, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Sheila Ferrell ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
I've been so busy lately for a variety of reasons, that although I've been chacking in daily, this topic got so lengthy so quick, that I avoided it in my quick visits.
I tried out having no computr at home as a step in the on-going work/family balancing act. It worked OK for awhile, & I got more reading done ... watched more TV too ... but when the after holidays slump started picking up, I was in the shop every night (OK, yeah, partly to pay for driving a new truck )... SO, I brought a computer home, & have been able to get some billing , estimates, or layouts done at home on evenngs or weekends.. but no internet acces at home for the last month.
Well, I finally gave in and admitted to myself that my experiment served a purpose... I'm in the high-tech world to stay & I hooked up my cable broadband DSL again yesterday. Since I've been up well before the sun, I got some layouts & quotes done already, but also got to read this entire thread in one sitting. WOW!
Didn't have much of a reply in mind when I started typing... just to weigh in my appreciation for the ongoing dialog available in this village.
I will say, however, that my take on some of this is this... I spent many years squandering some of my talents learning to live outside the parameters of productive society. I wasn't a doom & gloomer (too much self-medicating ) but I felt that the American dream was a farce. I learned to grow food etc., build rustic cabins, heat & cook with wood, use solor power, live w/o electricity &/or maintaining 12V power through photovoltaics & deep cycle batteries charged by my vehicle etc. etc. (got lots of reading done in those days... & got to know & appreciate my family)
FLASH FORWARD... OK, now I'm choosing to play "the game" & I have debt. My office is impressive (to me anyway) I have 24 hrs. a day to live, & molding my god-given talents into a sucessful homeowner/husband/sign guy is my job & I can give it the whole 24 hours after sleep & I don't sleep much. I also don't socialize much outside of the business, but I did enough of that to last a lifetime. I've also done more traveling then most people will ever do, so now I'm sinking roots & branching out on what I think is a good foundation. A key part of that foundation though, is that I've been pennyless & unafraid so many times that I don't fear it. I wouldn't let that fearlessness cause me to take foolish business risks, or any foolish risks... but no doom or gloom will shake my decision to play the game right now, because if the game crumbles in my lifetime... then all the rules change... for everyone, & I feel that my survivalist past will prepare me as well as the next guy for whatever destiny has to throw my way.
So, I guess what I'm saying is I will keep trying to do a good job as a business owner working the concept of capitalism in my favor, always looking to improve profitabiliy as well as the quality of my products & services AND my life. I have goals to be able to make the same amount of money in less time... but then, when I can do that, I will still probably not invest "less time". I may be a workalcoholic, but I'm a contented one.
I've grossed around 100K (on the books) for 4 years running by myself. Since James is still quoting vague references I must have made (& still make) to a sordid past... I guess I should be vague about what I mean by "on the books" but lets just say, I have no doubt I could sell & produce $150,000.00 worth of signs in a year alone. What is obviously more important is how much of that I keep. Right now I don't "keep" much... but I sure enjoy spending it that is as true with buying cool new tools, as it is writing the checks for my Gerber Edge, my nice new truck, or going out to dinner several times a week with my wife.
Like Shiela said about the economy, people letting the money flow through their lives lets everyone move more good & services in & out of our lives. That's where the fun is for me. Thats what I work for... not for a nestegg of cash. At 45, I realize I won't want to work long hours forever, so saving &/or investing is now entering the picture as another financial goal for me to aspire to, & this thread has inspired me in that way. I was very fortunant to have dealt with the 25K in past-due debt I was carrying around when I started this career, & then when my credit was cleaned up I bought a 300K property with 2 houses. Now, 2 years later it is worth 500K... so I might like to try investing in property again sometime.
[ February 25, 2004, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Doug the reference I made to your prevoius comments was a positive one, not about a sordid past. If memory serves me correctly you once said "The first year I bought a --- machine, I made ---." I can't recall the model or number, but it was impressive, a real eye opener.
To everyone:when I talk about the state of the economy, it's really quite relavant to this thread, in this way: Buying power. We keep having to charge more for signs, and that wouldn't be such a big deal if inflation were across the board, and in a sense it is, everybody's charging more, but hidden costs are eating us up alive. The difference between what we're charging and what we're able to buy is where we're losing. I don't know about others, but I would hate to have to hire myself. Scary. And I realize that's part of the problem, in a pyschological way, that is, fear of how outragious my prices sound keeps me from charging more. But look again, so I raise my prices and that makes me MORE affordable to myself??? Hmmm.
Are the factors I cited somehow not true? You think people put in less hours than before? They have less debt? With so much awesome technology around, we ought to be able to do better than this folks. Think about the differences between us and the animals. We have so much more capacity to appreciatte art, music, technology. But we spend most of our time running the rat race. We could be striving for new achievments in self improvement, more time to help the needy, but there's less spent on charity now than ever. This is a great economy? Hmmm.
I didn't mention before the reasons I try to live debt free, just my ideas about how it affects the economy. Years ago, I realized I didn't have steady enough income or nerves to take on debt. I stayed in that pattern for a long time,and started realizing the relationship debt has with the economy. I feel I'm qualified to speak out against it's dangers because I'm debt free. (Hey I'm a Christian, I have a hard enough time with hypocrisy ) Also another big thing is that now I'm challenged. (mentally?) I've been dealing with this situation for so long, quiting would feel like surrender. Often it feels like I'm in one of those Erol Flynn(sp?) swordfighting scenes, pay a bill here, fix a thing there. I'm not saying I'm in it for the sport of it, no way, but I want to know if it can be done!
I'm not a static survivalist. I've got aspirations. I've got some fairly good sized dreams, but I've got to get there a different way. I've got my hands, my mind, and God's mercy to pull this off. Talk about adventure. It's enough to be compelling.
[ February 25, 2004, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: James Donahue ]
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
The whole game of being in one's own business is challenging to say the least. Back when I started it seemed relatively easy. I borrowed $20 from a friend and bought a few half pints and quarts of paint and a piece of overlaid plywood and painted a sign. The profits of this job were reinvested (less a little for me) and off I went.
I was living at home at the time and painted out in the driveway which minimised my overhead. My $50 dollar '56 fourdoor Ford was the shop vehicle.
Things are a little more complex for me now to say the least!
But ever since those first projects I have grown the business through the years.
The trick IS timing. Economies do cycle. And big expansions must be timed to coincide with the good times. When bad times hit you have to pull in your horns quick to minimise the hurt. That said, it's also a must to expand on the very start of the upswing to take full advantage of it and pay things off before the economy goes to pieces.
Slower times are the most critical. That's the time to learn new things, develop your skills and do up your own shop. I've always liked to build our houses and new shops when its slow. Things are cheaper, especially trades and my own time is a good investment if I can't make better money elsewhere.
Slow times are also perfect for doing up your own shop truck, new business cards, and that fancy new showroom.
No matter how busy or slow the economy, its always a good idea to LOOK prosperous. And I don't mean by going into hawk. Keep the landscaping around your place of business looking fresh and cared for. Keep the vehicle shined up and painted nice, even if it's just an old beater. And keep your showroom and portfolio up to date and showing only your best work and especially the type of work you WANT to do in the future.
Most important is to ALWAYS keep a positive attitude, ESPECIALLY IN PUBLIC. Folks love to deal with others who have a positive outlook in life. And if they think you are doing well they will want to do business with you just so it perhaps might rub off on them a little.
Set realisitic, achievable goals and do something (even a few minutes) that will bring you closer towards that goal every day.
And through all this don't forget or ignore the folks you love in life. Keep it balanced - that's the hard part.
-dan
Posted by vinylman777 (Member # 1074) on :
James, We are a two man shop and each take a week off each year (at different times). Our daily quota is $900 a day. If we don't pull that, I worry.
I don't think 5 or 6 hundred a day is so much for a one man shop...
Christian
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Bump: 'cause I got a lot out of it (or should have). I wanted to see it again for the specifics. But the generalities are just as important. Thanks to those who replied.
And did I actually reply that many times?!?! Man what a blabbermouth.
Jill's thread hit close to home, so it set me thinking about all this stuff. Steve said maybe it's time some of you got off the pot and moved. My wife's parents are getting on in years, and it's good that we're here to help them.
This seems like a tough market.One thing I have noticed, as I look back: sales is what wrecks my income. Back in Ca. I subbed for a window splash company. She took 35% of the job, but supplied the customers and paint. I just drove around and painted. That was decent money. Another thing was (is) RR equipment, as long as it's the regular freight equipment, not a restoration project. It's good because there's no sales time involved. Lastly, the sign shop at the nearby theme park. They occaisionaly get swamped.She hands me a stack of papers, and says do them how you want, I know they'll turn out fine.
I've got to aim towards this, not just take it when it comes around.
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
It's great to go back and revisit these older posts. There's a pile of knowledge and experience packed away in older posts. It's a good reminder of how handy the search tool can be.
Have any of the original posters seen some signs of change since this was posted back in early 2004?
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
more people with plotters doin signs cheaper and cheaper....one put his 18x24 road sign 2 blocks from my house....seen 3-4 new NEED A SIGN? call 000-0000 I WONT BE UNDERSOLD... guy with a print shop doin 2'x5' banners for $25....on the other side material cost have gone up(all vinyls increased)gas prices almost doubled of what it was in 2004....coffee cost more, plywood was $15 a sheet is now $26 a sheet,MDO was $38 is now close to $70, aluminum sheet was $40...now is close to $60.....and how do the newbies do signs for less......THEY DONT ..THEY JUST WORK FOR FREE....and run the market lower.....now with digital printing....they are even cheaper.....so its GONE TO THE DOGS.... and i dont see it going back to a lot of money.....only if you got the talent to paint, are you goin to be able to get real prices for your work....cause right now the idiot with the plotter /computer is tryin to take away your business and the only thing he CAN DO IS LOWER THE PRICES...cause he more in likey dont got any talent or brains....to know better. i got a bunch of customers who keep me busy....but i get more calls "pricing or lookin for a bid" on some thing....or iam callin round and need a good price on ....or DO YOU PRICE MATCH? NO I DONT...if some idiot wants to do your ONE double faced coro 18x24 and give you the stake for $15.. ...CALL THE DUMB A S S!!!!
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
After attending several live meets and delving into higher end work, the pluses have been numerous.
For years, I had a niche in the racing market here, but with more vinyl shops in that market, I changed the strategy to break away from it. As a result, although doing only 4 cars this year, each were more profitable and the shop was no less busy with dimensional work and higher end vehicle work. (The bikes are starting to line up... )
I've gotten a better grip on the business aspects. In the past, I would go out of my way to do every aspect in the fabrication process. Now, I regularly sub out sandblasting and clear coating to a local body shop. We have an excellent working relationship and, as a result, we've both seen an increase in better paying work.
Shortly after the Looney Letterheads meet, I took the plunge into a larger Main Street location. Although it didn't last and the shop is home again, just being downtown gave a certain validity to the business and it carried over. The walk-in cutomers have increased here at home and plans for a new, larger shop are in the works for the near future.
None of these pluses were accidental. It's been a hard fought battle with some challenges along the way, but I was determined to start steering the business in the direction I wanted, not what my customers felt it should be. Some have left, some have stayed and a few were "fired", but the new customers are less inclined to worry about price and look at our work as an investment and not so much an expense.
After 15 years, I think I'm starting to get the hang of this.....finally. Who'da thunk it! Rapid
Posted by Jill Marie Welsh (Member # 1912) on :
Here's my update....I brought in about $1K less last year and spent about $1K more...something's gotta give here.
I am gonna get a day job and be selective about the types of signs that I do. After the other day's post (especially what Donna said) I realize that I do have a gift, I always have. BUT that doesn't mean I have to "give" it away!
I am going to provide mostly painted jobs. The HP vinyl can go onto vehicles, when I get what I want for them. Funny, in the past 2 days I have gotten 2 painting jobs. One is a much coveted one (the pizza place who stencilled their own building....guess the township got after 'em )
Good luck & God bless us every one. Love....Jill
Posted by Ron Carper (Member # 999) on :
Please don't take this the wrong way.... Are you a sign artist or are you in the sign business. Have you ever seen a highly sucessfull business owner, CEO or anyone in any field that was not consummed by what they did? When I hear a business owner say they don't want to work long hours, I see a person who will not make it, whether it be a sign business, plumber, or ice cream store. You gotta pay your dues, and when you are starting out, probally for the 1st 10-15 yrs., you will put in 60-80 hr. weeks if you want to make it. At some point you may be able to rest, but that will come later. If you don't want to do that, don't go into business! Make it a hobby, work for someone else.
This has nothing to do with you talent, abilities or experience. It's business.
I spent the last 25 yrs. in the Sign BUSINESS. You can make a 6 figure income and you won't have to always work 12 hr. days. I'm able to slow down a little (if I want to....I love doing this), take 3-4 weeks off a year, enjoy the grandkids.
If you don't want your business to consume you and you don't have a real passion not only for making signs but for being in business, it can still be a great life, doing what you love, making a normal income.
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
what a great post!! i missed this last year because i was on vacation....something that i hadn't done in 7 years! have things changed?....yep...my prices are still increasing...because everything i buy costs more. i keep track of these things more...i figure if i'm working my ass off then i need to be compensated for it. my skin is getting thicker..although the i still felt a little stab when i saw one of my customers drive by me with his truck lettered and i didn't do it. i'm sure he did find someone cheaper...goodie for him. i'm going to take most of the day off...to watch my stepson play his baseball state final. the world won't crumble if snosigns is closed on a wednesday! number wise i'm doin better every year but not quite as much as i feel i deserve...hopefully i will iron that out.
Posted by Nancy Beaudette (Member # 1983) on :
It pains me to hear that so many in our industry are struggling. Noella and I were at a similar place in the late 80's, early 90's. In 1990 we attended our first letterhead meet, and really got fired up about our potential within this industry...and we are still honing our artistic skills today.
Excellence at our craft is only one side of the story. Like most artistic types, we knew nothing about business except that it was supposed to make us money. So, in 1992 we hired a business consultant, and our fate changed almost overnight. The consultant taught us how to ask and answer questions about our business and to collect pertinent information that we would base all decisions upon. He also taught us how to read financial statements and how to be true to the activity of our business. So as we were getting better at our craft, we were also getting better at running a business.
Of course there are more ingredients to this pie than apples and a pinch of cinnamon. We very carefully and consciously acquired skills like goal setting, time management, cost accounting, investment strategy, marketing, employee management, etc. But even with all this knowledge I think our most important asset was, and still is, "an attitude of success". This is really what gets us the blue ribbon at the county fair.
Success is an "acquired skill" that can be learned. We looked for people in our community who we considered successful and talked to them. Successful people love to teach and pass along knowledge, and they are all around us. A good mentor is an extremely valuable asset.
Honestly, Noella and I still pinch ourselves and wonder if this is real. The fact is, we're no different than anyone here. We just had a vision, and with that vision, a plan, and the courage to see it through. If we can do it, so can you.
[ July 27, 2005, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: Nancy Beaudette ]
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jill Marie Welsh: .... One is a much coveted one (the pizza place who stencilled their own building....guess the township got after 'em )
Please, please, please tell me this is the 1 I think it is. If so
An observation, not just from this thead, but from a lot of things I've seen and heard from other signmakers lately. Too many people in business (this and other businesses) have absolutely NO CLUE about business.
Some see others who have been in business for years driving new cars & taking expensive vacations & decide to go in business for themselves so they can have that too. Maybe they just need the ego trip of saying they own their own business (worked for 1 of those once, it wasn't pretty). The problem is either they don't want to actually work, just want the benefits they see from being self employed, don't see the work it took to get to the expensive car/vacation stage or they have no clue about business.
I see so many people in this industry who are constantly shooting themselves in the foot and honestly, they are hurting everyone in the industry. Some because they are running their business with only their heart instead of their brain & gut, some who don't look at what their business is doing until tax time after they've given their accountant a stack of receipts and the accountant has given them a tax return, some who just flat out refuse to keep informed of what is going on in the industry outside their own little world, some because they just won't get organized. These people have no one to blame but themselves.
This is a business, just like any other. It's a shame you have to take a written test to get a driver's permit and then prove your skills to get the license, yet anyone can go into business without any education or even business common-sense.
Want to fix it? You have to make a committment to fix it, a REAL committment. It ain't gonna be easy to change years of bad habits but it will be well worth it. If you refuse to fix it, sell your inventory & equipment, get a job at Staples and quit ruining the market in your area.
1. Call your local college & schedule yourself into their first business course. This fall. Right now. Have you called yet? Community college classes generally don't run over $200 or so and most have evening or saturday classes. (next semester take an introductory accounting class)
2. Change your own view of your business. It is not a hobby. If a customer goes elsewhere (as long as it wasn't because you were downright rude to them) it is not a personal insult to you. It is business. It's great to have a dialog/relationship with your customers but never lose sight of the reason you are doing this, to make money. If you're afraid to ask for money, get a job at Staples. I'm sure any employer would love an employee who won't ask for more money. It's great to have the freedom to take time off for a doc appt or whatever without having to ask your boss but this is still a business. Work out of your home? Do not answer your house phone during work hours. You have to respect that you run a business if you expect anyone else to.
3. Call your accountant and ask what software they recommend FOR YOU & your situation. Schedule a time for them to set up your company file for you. (If they won't do this, ask others you know for referrals cause you need a new accountant). I like to have people set up an "unknown" expense account and if they have a question as to where it goes, they can put it in their with a very detailed explanation and I'll figure it out, or call me & talk to me about it when they're doing their books.
4. Schedule once a week to do your accounting. Consider this a weekly appointment. Commit to it. All your receipts, invoices, etc. go into a folder during the week to be entered during their scheduled time.
5. Try to go to a tradeshow at least once every other year (once a year is better). Read ALL the articles in the magazines you get, not just the ones that appeal to you. Even if it is something you don't want to get into, you need to pull your head out of the sand and be aware of what is going on in your industry. You don't have to play follow the leader, but you need to be aware.
6. If you're not already keeping track of your exact time & costs on a job, start. Next order that comes in, grab a sheet of paper & write down every minute you spend on it (from initial dicsussion time with customer to creating the invoice and getting them out the door) and all materials. Do you have more time & money invested in this job than you thought you did? Time to get more efficient or increase prices. (I can't talk about prices without a plug... www.pricingmadeeasy.com I love EstiMate! lol)
7. Make sign buddies that offer things you don't. That heating guy whose truck you lettered last week... ask if he ever thought about using those "installed by" or "serviced by" decals. Even if you don't do printing, someone here will print them for you. You make a few $ and you grow the relationship with this customer. You've become a 1-stop shop for him. If you don't mention these, maybe his wife will tell him he needs those decals, he finds a shop listed under decals in the phonebook & when he goes there he finds they also do truck lettering. Hmmm, 1 stop shop for him why should he come back to you? Why should he go to this shop for truck lettering, this one for decals... you get the idea.
8. Make people aware of what you do. I met with a customer a couple weeks ago about a logo & big sign for a new business they're opening. They called last week asking if I could do a banner for them, they didn't know if I could do those. Sometimes we need to step back & look at our business from the eyes of an average customer. We all know what we're doing and what our offerings are but customers aren't as educated in the industry as we are.
9. Look at the image you project. If your sign is falling apart, it doesn't instill confidence. If your shop sign is faded coroplast, people are not going to expect you to do the high end jobs. If your truck looks like it's 1 trip from the junk yard, people are not going to want to trust you lettering their 40k truck.
10. Get a pocket notebook. On each page, write the day & date. Keep this with you at all times. Any appointments get written in it along with your daily to-do list. Always consult it before scheduling anything. End of day, sit down and go over your list for today, what got done, what didn't and what's on the agenda for tomorrow. Even if it feels like an unproductive day, crossing things off a list, gives that you great false sense of accomplishment.
11. Build fluff. If you have a problem with delivering on time or always feel like you're rushing to finish a job on a deadline, build fluff. Customer orders a sign that you expect to have done by next Tuesday. Tell yourself it's due by noon Tuesday. Tell your customer it'll be ready Wednesday afternoon. Any disasters come up, you have some leeway. It's ready Tuesday at noon, call the customer & tell them they can pick it up that afternoon. Most times they'll love it being early or at least be impressed by that. It's not early to you, it's on time but to them it's early cause you built fluff.
I have a lot more, any questions or want to discuss further, feel free to give me a call. This is the tip of the iceberg, the beginners course. There is still a loooong way to go after this (like reading financial statements, etc.)
[ July 27, 2005, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: Kissymatina ]
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
This is a subject I am passionate abot. I was delighted to see it come back!
We've seen some fairly big changes in our business this past year. In the short term its meant a substancial decline in our numbers, but I'm not worried. We have a plan.
First off I've downsized the number of crew to three employees instead of the five we used to have. This does not include Janis or I.
We found the shop functions best with this number of employees for the amount of workspace we have.
The number of really big jobs declined for us this year... or rather we had a big one cancel at the last minute leaving us with a big hole in the schedule and forcing us to make some adjustments. Six weeks of poor weather this spring also made us put off some outside work we wanted to do.
Having a real shop at long last also changed the nature of our business a great deal. During the first full year we were able to prefabricate more pieces and then ship for installation. It made us much more productive and allowed me to design things differently so our projects reassembled in the field easier. We spent a fraction of the time we usually do on the road, which I grew to really appreciate - especially as a new grampa.
I wrote an article for SignCraft around the new year which ran as a sidebar to the feature on our new shop. In it I wrote how I would run our shop if we were a "normal" sign shop. It got us to thinking and we decided to become just that. But with a slight difference of course.
We would do only three dimensional signs and by that I mean REALLY three dimensional stuff. Sculptures with signs as part of them. It would start small like a rock thrown into a pool. Soon the ripples would widen to the communities around and beyond. It is working beyond my wildest dreams already! Since February we have sold 7 major projects and have quite a number on the drawing board for future months. Our goal is do three or four of these projects each month. When we achieve this goal we can do MORE business with better margins than we did in the theme park business. And best of all we won't have to travel to do it!
The phone is begining to ring from far and wide as word of our creations begins to spread. I firmly believe we have discovered our next NICHE market... and I'll prove it in years to come.
Best of all we can do the bulk of fabricating right here in the comfort of the shop and ship these things to where ever they need to go.
Changes are still coming down the pike. A new CNC router will be operational in mid-September allowing us a precision we have never enjoyed before. We look forward to what we will be able to do with this machine!
We are exploring a host of new materials and methods to expand our repetoir. Combined with the materials we have used in the past will be exciting.
I truely believe we have the ability to increase our gross income and bottom line too while still continuing to have the MOST FUN in the business creating the off the wall OUTRAGEOUS things we do.
In a world where most signage is flat and vinyl there is a HUGE demand for hand done creative work.
Best of all I know we can live in the small town we enjoy and market our creations to the world at large.
BUILD IT and they WILL come!
-grampa dan
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
"Here's my update....I brought in about $1K less last year and spent about $1K more...something's gotta give here." this what i was addressing in my post....apprently only jill and i seem to notice(or are aware) the increase in ALL WE BUY as to the DECREASE in what we sell!!!!! and the same time more people trying to startup their business(as ron said)who are willing to work 60-80 hrs for $5 an HOUR!!!!!! they see it as building their business so the can relax later...but in the process they will have an DECLINING EFFECT on their onw business.....its the old SUPPLY vs. DEMAND.....to many tryin to make a livin off a dwindling market share. also its become a "business" of EQUIPMENT NOT TALENT!!!! and none of that comes cheap. EDGE, PLOTTER, SOFTWEAR, time spent learning HOW TO USE THESE....all take away $$$ PER HOUR of real income. and along with the EQUIPMENT comes SUPPLIES so the EQUIPMENT can PRODUCE.....so you CAN MAKE THE MONEY TO PAY FOR THE SUPPLIES TO RUN THE EQUIPMENT SO YOU CAN MAKE THE MONEY TO PAY FOR THE EQUIPMENT THAT YOU MAKE THE MONEY FOR THE SUPPLIES SO THE EQUIPMENT CAN PRODUCE...........round and round we go. guess iam gettin old...and being used to MAKING ALL THE MONEY...IN MY POCKET...not to vinyl, inks, plotters, printers and the people who SELL THEM..... i like the days when i did a stock car, with a brush, in 3-4 hours start to finish, got $200 and $180 of that was ALL PROFIT!!!!! like i said once before in apost....it aint YOUR GROSS INCOME thats important.....ITS THE PROFIT you get which is waht you need to see...example: old snapper workin outa his truck, didnt make $20k a yr.....BUT 16-17K was all PROFIT!!!! now you got a shop with printer, plotter, rent, utilities, supplies, 1 employee other then you...now its a $100k operation.....sooooo outa that amount now comes equpiment, utilities,rent, supplies, wages.....so you now have become AN EMPLOYEE OF ALL these things.....and....maybe outa that 100k you did last year your pocket saw $25k.....not a good precentage of gain in my way of accounting......and on top of these thing you got the possibility of illness, natural disaster, equipment failure and periods of NO WORK... but you still have to pay the bills.....or they come and take your eqipment....this post by the orignator of this post is on the classifieds...
"Gerber EDGE II...LIKE NEW..........$8,000
Hyatt's Dual Drive Router w/NEW Columbo Spindle and Vacuum table..........................$22,000 (Includes ArtCam 3D software!!)
[ June 13, 2005, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Mark Rogan ]
[ July 27, 2005, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
There's no lack of money in the sign biz, only lack of people willing to reach out and take what's there, or finding ways to get it.
Sign biz is absolutely no different than any other business. if you do the same thing everyone else is doing, your price is dictated by market. If you do something nobody else offers, you set your own price. You have to be willing to change your business model over time, you cannot expect to do things the same way for 30 years and still make a living.
If a sign biz fails and the owner starts a business in a different industry, chances are that business will fail too unless they change the way they run a business.
It's NOT about art, skill, or talent. Sorry, it's NOT. It's about business. There are plenty of talentless hacks out there, some have their own TV shows building motorcycles or Pimping people's cars, raking in the coin hand over fist because their market for some reason or other *perceives* them to be the best.... aside from the fact they make total asses of themselves on TV.
Perception. PR. Business.
Even Dan Sawatzky finds ways to turn all his jobs into PR opportunities. Articles in mags and newspapers, parade floats, working on-site in a shopping mall.. building a castle out of sugar cubes...
This stuff does not happen by sheer dumb luck or accident, folks.
**Edit** By the way, OP is right. Gross means nothing. 100K is useless if 75k goes to bills. Man, there are such easier ways to earn a living than working yourself to the bone like that, and still having to worry about slow times, equipment failures or catastrophic events like earthquakes or hurricanes.
If a business has 100k in sales, 50k of that better be pure profit going right into the bank. Gotta save for a rainy day.
[ July 27, 2005, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Mike Pipes ]
Posted by Ron Carper (Member # 999) on :
WOW.... Read Dan Sawatsky, then read Old Paint Life is too short, in our land of freedom and opportunity (yea, Canada too, sort of) you can create any type of life you want. Remember, your attitude is contagious
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
yeah.. what Ron said! OP, you're a great guy... but if attitude is contagious, I think I'd rather read Dan's post afterreading yours
So many folks with so many unique viewpoints... & most of them spoken like it is the proven one & only correct view.
...couple a quotes (gotta keep up with my reputation..)
quote: now you got a shop with printer, plotter, rent, utilities, supplies, 1 employee other then you...now its a $100k operation.....sooooo outa that amount now comes equpiment, utilities,rent, supplies, wages.....so you now have become AN EMPLOYEE OF ALL these things.....and....maybe outa that 100k you did last year your pocket saw $25k.....and on top of these thing you got the possibility of illness, natural disaster, equipment failure and periods of NO WORK...
OP, that scenario does sound pretty bleak compared to swinging a brush & pocketing 95% of every dollar you collect... but as you said..."it's the old SUPPLY vs. DEMAND.....to many tryin to make a livin off a dwindling market share." & the market for handpainting, as superior as it is in many ways, is also dwindling. As for the risks you mention... YES, running a business has risks. Just like the long hours Ron mentions... it goes with the territory & is at it's worst in the begginning. Working at Staples does have less risk!
quote:**Edit** By the way, OP is right. Gross means nothing. 100K is useless if 75k goes to bills. Man, there are such easier ways to earn a living than working yourself to the bone like that, and still having to worry about slow times, equipment failures or catastrophic events like earthquakes or hurricanes.
If a business has 100k in sales, 50k of that better be pure profit going right into the bank. Gotta save for a rainy day.
Mike if you are pocketing 50% of sales... more power to you, but that is by no means the norm, or the benchmark that must be met. I think there is an important distinction in the generalization of saying "100K is useless if 75k goes to bills" If those bills include paying off things like shop improvements & equipment purchases that build equity & increase profitability... that is much better then if it all went to sign supplies or payroll for example.
Saving for a rainy day is a great idea, but back to the fact of taking risks as a business decision... I could have built up a nice retirement plan in the last few years, but I've grown my business considerably with the funds I had available. The increased profitability could make it easier to accumulate that retirement savings at a later date... if I stay able & willing to work hard... if not, then I lose the gamble... but you can't win if you don't play Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
ummm....last year and this year have been my best ever---gross and take home.
the town I am in is 3500 folks, and I am still breaking over 100k.
The focus has to be on DESIGN, not on PRICE.
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
Just in case anyone out there thinks I have it all figured out or that my way is the only way they would be sadly mistaken.
We need to each choose our own path... what is right for us.
If you chose to walk in my shoes for a week or perhaps longer, you would quickly discover I too have dilemas I must solve on a regular basis. And sometimes the solution is not readily at hand.
Our business is one of long term goals... and suffers occasionally from lack of cash flow - something we are currently working hard to correct by changing direction a little and taking on "sign" projects for the "normal" world instead of focusing soley on the theme park world. A change in direction takes time to implement.
We still live with long term debt but are paying it off rapidly. The choice to pay down our debt faster keeps us cash poor for the short term but we firmly believe that it will serve us well in the future.
We have chosen to build a very high end studio to showcase our skills. We quickly discovered that living on even a small acreage is more costly than on a city lot - especially in terms of the time commitment needed to build and maintain.
The new shop is still in construction (for two years now) and the building process on our property will take the better part of ten years in my estimation... and that's with the ideas we already have in mind. Being in construction will use up a substancial amount of our cash on hand for most of those years too. Those are the rules and we are not imune from them.
But as aluded to in my posts above we make daily decisions to steer our business in the direction we want to go. The jobs we tackle are for the most part high visibility jobs and we futher promote our business through marketing efforts such as writing articles.
High visibility and outrageous projects attract media attention and we gobble the opportunity up using it to the fullest advantage.
Contests and awards are also a great marketing opportunity... not for the glory but instead for the chance to raise our profile.
We tackle our business with the same passion we put into our art.
We have experimented with various sizes for our business, growoing from working solo to 22 employees and back down to the smaller size we are today. Each choice has been deliberate.
Its important that we do what makes us happy, for life is too short to do otherwise. I love my work, and it is a huge part of who I am. We have made many deliberate choices in favor of the lifestyle we choose to live. Each choice we make has a price and we all have to pay the piper.
I'm happy with the choices we've made through the years. And I'll live with the mistakes without regret.
-grampa dan
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
I have been TRYING to read this whole post over the last 2 hours & kept getting interrupted once I knew what I wanted to say, so, what I will say will probably be pretty simple compared to all of what you guys have said.
Kissy, those are REALLY good points, & I humbly admit, I have said "Ouch" to a couple of them, being guilty myself.
Jill, I think I my profit was only $7000 last year, & I know how it feels! And you remember that gallbladder surgery I had last November? Well, my hospital had Charity Care, & they paid over $8000 in medical bills for it. Most hospitals do this.
I am ok with this, tho. Really! Sometimes my husband will do side jobs that have helped, but i have come to realize that every time business slows for me, there is something needing my attention, a lot of times aside from my work. I always get through it, & I personally believe it is the Lord helping me. He never lets me down.
Also, my husband is in this with me. We have talked about him getting a job on his own again, but we do not want to do this. We always come thru, & we feel that it is going to work, & get better, as it does a little more all the time.
Aside from that, I have only been doing this for about going on 7 yrs., & I get busier every year. Maybe not a whole lot, but I get customers by word of mouth. I am on a back road, in the middle of allotments. There was no zoning here when I started, & the township has no problem with me, nor my neighbors. Most of my next door type neighbors are campers who only come up in the summer anyway.
What really was waking me up about my pricing was the fact that my customers were pulling in here with fancy new SUVs & extended cab trucks & trying to whittle my prices down... something's wrong here! Then you have the local yokal types who think they are doing you a favor telling you they want their stock cars lettered by YOU... oh my goodness, ME???? And they will spend THOUSANDS on their cars & whine about how much you want to letter it! I blow them off, now. The heck with them.
I am learning a lot of new ways to look at things by being on this board, & I am really grateful to be able to come on here & read these posts.
I have always been content with what I have, because I had been on welfare years ago, & was a single mom for awhile. I truly believe that if I keep going, I will be fine. Things get better as I learn more, & I get busier, too.
And one interesting note... Working out of home means being disciplined! When I start to slack off, getting up late, getting lazy, etc., NO BUSINESS! Isn't that something? It is true! When I hop to it, get up early & work my butt off, it just keeps coming! Almost like the Lord saying, "When you get those done, there will be more, but not until..."
See, all of you with these big numbers you earn every year amaze me. That is wonderful. I am so happy for you, & that you share on here to help others. I never expected in my whole life to be where I am now, & it may not seem like much to some of you, but to me, I am happy! I am not the best letter painter, but you watch, I will get there! I am learning to take one day at a time, & not to fret as much.
OP, I hear you, the prices of vinyl stuff, MDO, aluminum, etc. is getting really high!!! I caught my self figuring prices for a sign last week & picked up my order to find it was almost $30 more than usual, here they jumped the prices & I was never told!
All of you who can paint quickly & beautifully have it all, if you ask me! After reading Jill's thread, & all of your responses, I am thinking about specifically picking out certain jobs & do them by hand, so I can get better & quicker. So any of you who are going to Jill's meet.. look out, I will be asking questions! Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Why do you people let customers beat you down like that?
If signs are a hobby for you, you don't need to make a profit...but... if it is your business---- make a profit on every sign ----or turn down the job!
You cannot compete with Joe's Stikkie Shop, that he runs outta his bedroom and make a profit!!!!
It is your business to make money! If someone needs a sign for their store, or wants their truck or boat lettered, quote a price (in a confidant tone of voice) that will give you a healthy profit!
If a customer tries to haggle price, I give them a 'cold eyed look' and raise my price! They either get the message or walk away! If they walk away...no big loss! After 38 years, I don't need practice, I want a profit!
How do I figure price?
1. Calculate materials and overhead cost. 2. Calculate labor cost. 3. Quote the highest price I can say ... without laughing!
Werks fer me! Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
ron doug, barry and anyone else who is READING WHAT I SAY AS AN ATTITUDE...WAKE UP FOLKS...iam telling it like it is.... as far as COSTS AND PRICING..... there is nothing wrong with my attitude....i love what i do, and am doing good with what i have. considering HURRICANE IVAN last sept, bladder cancer, surgury and recovery time, finding out iam 100% cancer free(hell of an attitude booster that one thing is!!!)and then having HURRICNE DENNIS hit here the begining of the month...... what i see IS REAL FOR ALL OF US!!! you may not choose to elaborate on it and say oh well..S H I T HAPPENS... but it does have an effect on all of our BOTTOM LINES!!!! iam not saying painting is the way to go..WRONG AGAIN FOLKS... i was saying that when i painted i made MORE PROFIT... and spent less for materials and supplies...END QUOTE! your materail cost havent gone up? vinyl prices havent increased? GASOLINE COSTS havent doubled since last year? GEE i want to live in your world....IAM STATING FACTS....thats all folks.... jill and i are aware of it....since we dont do 100K a year....less gross, less profit! so we tend to not see the business as rosey as those who have 100K comin in....BUT YOU ARE STILL BEING AFFECTED BY RISING COSTS and a dwindling market!!! then add newbies who have no years of experiance to base their business on....trying to open THEIR MARKET...with lower prices...again AFFECTS ALL OF US....and what really p.o's me....is most of you know me, how bad of an ATTITUDE DO I HAVE....when i posted the picture of me in speedos workin on my building? and i also am one of the few that is happy with my life(cancer free, 60 and building my shop while making signs FULL TIME)and you all want to jump me for an ATTITUDE???? i think you need to stop...and check your own TUDES.....
[ July 27, 2005, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Doug,
That's a good point RE: reinvesting back into the business.
I reinvest in my business on a regular basis, but as far as numbers are concerned I put improvements and new equipment into a different category. They don't *cost* money, investments give you *returns* so they really don't count against you. The fact they earn money basically negates what they cost. You also have the choice to make the investments using profits, or not. History has already proven they are non-essential to the success of your business (if you already have the profits to pay for them in the first place) they are simply a means to earn more. Just my take on it! Of course if you make nothing and you go into debt to obtain equipment you HOPE will help you turn a dime, that's a completely different animal - and a POOR business decision. I've seen a lot of people taking on lots of debt so they can "run with the big dogs" and they ultimately fail.
That being said...
The majority of my jobs are priced on-track to yield 50% margins. This is something I started doing recently and consistently within the last year. Some items don't yield as much such as most of the pre-designed stuff on my website (non-custom anyway) but anything else is fair game.
Shooting for 50% gives plenty of headroom for equipment purchases. I couldn't invest in all this photo gear without a decent margin. Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Attitude? What attitude? Ol'Paint is a realist!
When competing with Pete's Screendoor & Signs, Lucille's salon & Signs, plus Luigi's Pizza & Signs...Joe solved the problem!
His shop has 3 doors!
[ July 28, 2005, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
Oh, my, Si, That is great!!!!
You forgot his pic in there with Speedos & pizza apron! Posted by Mark Rogan (Member # 3678) on :
___________________________________________________________ Its important that we do what makes us happy, for life is too short to do otherwise. I love my work, and it is a huge part of who I am. We have made many deliberate choices in favor of the lifestyle we choose to live. Each choice we make has a price and we all have to pay the piper. _____________________________________________________
Hey, All! I must say I'm a little chocked up seeing a post I started over a year ago had been resurected and produced a flaming folder to boot!
Damn, I'm going to miss this business...wait, that's not 100% accurate. I'm going to miss making signs and miss going to meets and seeing friends, making new ones, learning great stuff like glass gilding. The "business" part I'm not going to miss. Allow me to make a few last observations. A lot of people talk about the need to be passionate about what we do. I have to believe 99.99% of everyone on this post IS passionate. Or how could they have read such a long thread and voiced their opinions so PASSIONATELY? I believe there are some here really talented at running a business. Have a real head for numbers. Are disciplined about spending (or not spending) money. I think others aren't as good at the business side. That doesen't make them any less talented or any less passionate. I think everyone would agree this IS a tough business. But what business isn't? Costs HAVE gone way up due to the war, the price of oil and other factors. But they've gone up for EVERYBODY. I started this post, so I feel I have to let everyone know what I've learned about why The Great Barrington Sign Company failed. One word sums it up: HUBRIS. If you aren't familiar with the word, the definition is: Overbearing pride or presumption; arrogance. I needed a driveway marker for the new house I just built with the $$ I got for selling the agency. So I bought a book on carving signs and carved one. A pretty fancy one, too. Came out nice. So nice, it was eventually stolen. But I liked doing it so much I contacted the author of the book, Paul White, and took some classes and apprenticed for a week. I was in AWE of his talents. The signs and carved eagles were unbelieveable. The full-sized hammerhead shark that I got to work on a little was mind-boggling. I KNEW that was what I wanted to do next. I needed to get away from NYC. Find something less stressful and produce art that would have some lasting value. All the ads, TV spots, radio, whatever I created over the last 18 years were gone. I realized I put my soul into my work and besides what I have on my reel or in my book, it's all gone. 30 second ads run a few times and then they're gone forever. A magazine ad will run in a few books for a few months then...puff...gone forever. Right after I sold the agency I was diagnosed with Stage III malignant melanoma. Basically I had (have) a 50/50 chance of surviving five years. So I really wanted to create some lasting art. Something my kids could show there kids "Hey, look. There's (blank) that Grandpa did." That wasn't going to happen with an ad or a TV spot. So I decide I'd open my own sign business. Hell, it would be a snap after building a 100 million dollar a year agency, right? Wrong. That's where the arrogance and hubris got me. How dare I stroll into a business wher I know nothing about? How dare I assume a nice logo and some fun radio spots is all it would take to have people beat a path to my door? This is my mia culpa, people. I admit it. I'm guilty. I went out and bought machinery and supplies with reckless abaondon. I bought airtime for my spots on 4 differnt stations and ran a heavy schedule. Full page, 4/C ads. New cargo van. I spent money like a drunken sailor.I eventually burned through a $300,000 401(k) My retirement fund. Gone. I fu**ed up big time. I had personal problems that I let get out of hand. That really destracted me from the business. I just gave up. Closed up. And just today I'm getting the space finally emptied so it can be rented and I can get out of my lease. Right now, I'm unemployed. Sold 1 house and have the second one on the market. I'll turn 50 in November. Not a great age to be when you're looking for a job in advertising. At 35 you're being told "It's a young persons game." I still have the Edge and the router. I'll probably set it up somewhere. Make signs for friends as gifts and stuff. My son starts college next month. His major is Auto Tech so I told him he could make plenty of pocket money selling the other kids auto graphics, stickers for their tool cabinets, etc. But, I'm not upset. I met some great people. Learned a lot of cool stuff. Learned some humility. In a very roundabout way I think I've rediscoverd some spirituality. I'm okay. I know I still have a lot to offer. I know I'm a damn good writer and creative god. (See? I told you I've learned humility. Notice the lowercase "G" in god.) There are a bunch of really nice signs around here in South County. Maybe years from now they'll still be here and my grandchildren will see them and my kids will point and say "Grandpa Rogan made that one, too."
Thanks to Ol' Paint for calling me and telling me this post had reared it's ugly head once again. I really appereciate it.
Alright kids, See ya 'round.
Mark
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
mark...i'm so glad you posted! i've thought about you often...wondering how you are doing...if you went back to ny or started another agency. i have no doubt you will bounce back and be a success in your next venture...you are extremely talented. the sign business is truly a difficult one. i talk to fellow heads on a daily basis...we always seem to trade similar stories about the challenges we face...the stress and demands of customers and deadlines, increasing costs, keeping up with technology and/or the ever changing products we use, competitors who give shyt away just to get a job, human error because we are trying to do everything ourselves and fuk up sometimes, etc. its almost like you have to be overly confident(or some would say arrogant)in this business or you get eaten alive...of course there are days when i doubt all my abilities as an "artist in business" ...especially when i'm doing something new or trying to learn yet another piece of software or equipment. i've been reduced to tears at 2am because i'm routing something and on the last tool change something goes very wrong...i've had to repaint a sign just to remove my salty tear stains on a freshly coated board because i was blubbering like a baby while i was standing over it. i always have bruises and flesh wounds on my arms, hands and legs because i'm constantly moving 4x8 sheets of mdo, plastic core, dibond or hdu...or schlepping 70lbs rolls of media upstairs by myself(i'm obviously a bull in a china shop). its physically and mentally challenging to say the least. some days i love it and some days i wonder what the hell i'm doing. but there's got to be more to it because i keep pluggin away. i hope things will start looking up for you...i know you put your heart and soul into the gbsignco. one door may have closed but a window will open. i know you said you have your house on the market and i'm not sure if that means you will be moving back to ny...but if you are still around in sept....the 23-25 to be exact...i'm hosting a meet and would absolutely love it if you could be there...we could be gilding some glass ya know. Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
This year hasn't been as good a year as some in the past. I blame that on the general economy. My regular clients are still sending me the same amount of work as usual but the "One Timers" aren't as frequent as they have been in the past. I am currently sitting at about 80% of the gross sales I had at this time last year. (But then I also didn't start the year until March.)
After reading the original post by John Martin Robson, that Kimberly posted last night and then reading this thread today, I started doing some checking on how things have changed for me over the years and why.
My pricing for virtually the same jobs for long time clients, since 1996, has increased by about 50%. What used to cost them $300 is now $450.
Interestingly enough though, my material costs have NOT increased by 50%!!!! Sure there always seem to be little increases now and then but they haven't added up to a 50% increase over those years. For example, in 1996 I was paying $5.75/yd for 24" black 2 mil Avery. Today I pay $7.10/yd. That is only about a 25% increase! (I only happen to know those figures because I went to the filing cabinet and checked)
[this paragraph is the edited part] Last year a long time client paid big bux to have their logo changed. They also started buying a different type of delivery vehicle. I quoted a price, and even though I wasn't the lowest, I got the contract based on past service. I quoted $500 per vehicle and did several. While we were in Mexico, on vacation, they e-mailed me for a quote on what it would cost to do the same job in reflective vinyl. Since I didn't have price sheets with me, I e-mailed Ken Henry and asked him to send me back some pricing from our supplier. The cost to do the job in reflective was going to increase my costs by $100 so I e-mailed a quote of $700. Quote was accepted. I make an extra $100 per vehicle because they want reflective. As someone said a few years ago (Cam Bortz) "perceived value". If you don't shoot for the moon you won't get any cheese.
I guess I am ahead of the game when it comes to covering price increases?
As far as ALL the expenses of running a business?
I am home based with a shop on the property.
And even though we are mortgage free, it doesn't enter into the equation much since we would have to have a place to live and I'd have to have a place to putter even if I weren't self employed in the sign business. So for me, I consider that I have no "shop overhead".
Sure, I have a van that I use for business. And Shirley has a car. Even if I weren't self employed, I'd still need to own something to drive to work at wherever I DID work at. So for me a shop vehicle isn't "overhead".
If I weren't self employed, I'd still need heat, electricity, telephone. So they aren't really "overhead" to me either.
The nice thing IS though... Since I AM self employed at my home, I can write off a huge portion of the expenses for all of the above on my income tax return.
Obviously, the situation is different for those with a "storefront" operation. They do have overhead expenses that home based shops don't. BUT the interesting thing IS, most of the complaining about rising costs and lower pricing is not being expressed by "storefront" operators. (I find THAT interesting, maybe they know more about being in business than home based folks?)
I guess my point is....Don't complain about rising costs, raise YOUR prices. Don't complain about overhead, appreciate it for what it is, a tax write-off. If you can't make a living at what you are doing, find a job that WILL earn you a living that you are comfortable with.
Bottom line...Si Allen quote...
quote:It is your business to make money!
(I figured since everyone else had a say, I might as well too! )
[ July 28, 2005, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: Dave Grundy ]
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Just a few other random thoughts...
If you think signmaking materials have increased...ask any auto body repairman/painter what he thinks about escalating costs. (Those of you who have had occassion to buy automotive paints/materials recently will know what I mean)
We happen to be in a business that is not REQUIRED in most people's mind.
If your roof leaks, your electricity quits working, your plumbing screws up, your vehicle won't start or any number of other things quit working...you HAVE to get someone on the job to rectify the situation so that you can continue living normally. (OR fix it yourself to save money.)
If a guy doesn't have a sign, or his sign looks shabby he DOESN'T have to get one made or refurbished. In his mind he can get along without for a while. (OR he can make one/fix one himself.)
It may not be correct thinking but it is practical thinking for many people.
Posted by Frank Magoo (Member # 3950) on :
One way to keep it in perspective is to remember that we are on the low end of the food chain...
Posted by Carl Wood (Member # 1223) on :
Sure made me think last Friday afternoon when I went to letter the 3rd new truck this month for one of my Plumbing customers - the service guy driving this one lives in a $300,000 house - -he was drinking iced tea & manicuring his yard while I did the graphics - - shameful . . .
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
quote:and i also am one of the few that is happy with my life(cancer free, 60 and building my shop while making signs FULL TIME)and you all want to jump me for an ATTITUDE???? i think you need to stop...and check your own TUDES.....
...relax Joe, I really don't think anyone's "jumping on you"
Ron said "attitude is contagious" after observing some differences between your "telling it like it is" comments on some negative facts of life & Dan's comments on a more positive outlook.
I'm not saying he doesn't see & deal with those other facts... & I'm certainly not saying you are missing all the positive stuff either, but I do think what you choose to post about on a discussion of profitability does, to some degree, reflect a mindset or a viewpoint (or the dreaded "A" word) & IF that were contagious... well I'm an optimist & I like positive attitudes.
That doesn't mean I'm trying to insult you or think you need to change, but I do believe that those who see the glass half full, also manifest it filling up & those that see it half empty manifest it draining. In your life you may be way ahead of me on this, but from your posts it sometimes seems like being around more optimistic viewpoints could be good for you too.
As for what has changed, I went back & read my older post. At that time I was impressed with a 200K increase in the value of my home (& I had already enjoyed the savings of refinancing once) I also posted about hitting 100K in sales for 4 years running.
..so what is new for me is the same house has increased in value another 250K in less then 2 years, & last year I did 130K in sales (by myself again) ...but this year, thanks in part to 3-1/2 months of full time help... I'm over 110K already & just made my biggest investment ever in new equipment. I also work less then last year.
Posted by Ron Carper (Member # 999) on :
I have close to 50 years on this planet (not counting several on other planets) and I have found that what I think is going to happen in my life, generally does. Being an optimist has nothing to do with your circumstances, they will change. This is why a persons attitude is so important. I have been around people who were born with a silver spoon in their mouth, yet their life is spinning out of control. Others, who have had constant and relentless setbacks seem to have it all together. Anyone can have a positive attitude when things are going good, it's when everything seems to be falling apart that you find what they are really made of.
OP...I'm not picking on you, I have enjoyed your posts over the years (although you would be happier if you were a Republican) Posted by E. Balch (Member # 3545) on :
After reading "the millionaire mind" I think the most important thing in making a living is to pick your customers. If you work for small business owners who are also struggling to get by you won't be able to get much for your work.
On the other hand, if you sell to large corporations money is not a problem. You can charge them a fair amount for your work.
Think about the most successful signmakers you know, do any of them serve the low end customers? I bet their customers have plenty of money.
ernie
Posted by Jill Marie Welsh (Member # 1912) on :
I agree with OP except for maybe I'm a bit more cheerful. I do think he's 100% right...there is a glut of plotter people (I can't even call 'em sign makers) They will make their stickers cheaper than anyone until they have hurt everyone's business. They have devalued what we Letterheads have striven to present to the public. But you know what? The public can have 'em. Let them run themselves out of business and see if I care.
I think to survive in this biz, one must be a hard worker, a perfectionist, and dedicated to producing good-looking products. Like so many have said, one must create a niche for themselves, and to provide a service that their competition cannot. And one must know the value of the service that they provide and not be afraid to charge for it. (like me) That's not saying you have to be an arrogant ass tho.
Unfortunately, most of the people in my area do not see a sign as a good advertising investment. It is often the last thing that they think of when opening a business. How many of us have had a last-minute frantic call from some client opening a business the next day? And people know the price of everything but the value of nothing.
I myself am an extremely poor businesswoman. I make signs with my heart, not my head. I used to spend hours trying to convince a person to buy a classy-looking sign. Now I just shut up and crank out Brush Script. Why waste precious time on someone who doesn't give a rat's patooty? Hey, we all have to eat.
It reminds me of a lady with a 1960's beehive hairdo...she has worn it for years, the look works for her (in her own mind) she thinks she's stylin....why try to talk her into a new 'do? Why bother? I would just get out the Aqua-Net and keep teasing if I were her stylist. And charge her for my time.
I know I need to change my habits tho, my sales style and my self-esteem. If someone wants vinyl, they are gonna pay me what it is worth. No more handing out sketches. No more "instant" quotes. If they want a logo, they are gonna be billed for it and also told just why it will be in their best interest to buy it from ME. And the only all-caps Old English stuff I do will be for my kid's friend's cars (but not for free) I have invested the past 20 years of my life into this biz and I'll be damned if I'll let some low-baller bring me down.
Mark, buddy, I wish you the best. You are a good person and a brave man to write what you just posted. I appreciate your honesty. And good luck with your health. You are one of my heroes.
Love....Jill
[ July 28, 2005, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: Jill Marie Welsh ]
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
LOL SI! I agree with your financial plan.
(And yeh Opie, what Ron said, PLUS you'd be happier at LEAST eatin' fish, if ya won't do steak . . . lol, did you know I LOVE to pick on you...?)
This IS a good thread-ressurection.
BTW, nothin's changed here: My little 'hick' town is still boomin', with several new Dr, offices recently built, a new farmer's Co-op, new YMCA soon, new hotels, new business offices, and we also have a new township started.
Do I get ALL that sign work? Nope . . .don't even try, 'cause one person can only do SO much and work just so many hours in a day. But I get enough of it, and growth means future demand too.
Just as an another example, Dallas has'nt changed either. Since 1979, massive highway construction booms and apartments and buildings. Something going on ALL the time.
I suppose it DOES depend on where you are, and it definitley depends, not so much on WHAT you choose to do, but HOW you choose to do it, meaning attitude goes way further than the almighty dollar.
How much IS 'enough' money anyway?
Being easily dis-satisfied or tryin' to keep up with material desires is most people's problem anyway. What is enough to me may seem like poverty to another, yet to those in poverty, I'm like a millionaire.
It's not wrong to have wonderful nice things. It's wrong when that's your only joy.
All 'classes' of people, every person, should understand the 'Money ain't everything' concept.
(I know lot's of very unhappy 'rich' people, and very happy 'poor' folks.)
If you work hard and try to do right, but bring home a limited income, are you really poor?
If you act like a fat-cat & rake in millions from devious schemes, are you really rich?
So, I belive that a combination of optimism, sweat, callouses, and love of God & people will render you a shining success in this life even if you lose every single thing.
It's not HOW MUCH you have or can get, it's ONLY WHAT YOU DO WITH IT....not just money or even a specific talent, or even your material things, . . .but also, as has been so adequately illustrated by OP and others, your health . . .and your eyes, your hands, your feet . . . . your brain.
What do you actually DO with the things you have?
~~~Theme song: Moon shadow
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
OK, OK, I can say I can relate to OP and Jill a whole lot better than I can Dan. Dan posesses something not too many of us here have in his ALWAYS positive attitude. I have no earthly idea how he does it. I try , but don't get anywhere near his level of perfection. Just like I have tried for thirty years to pull a decent straight line, I just can't do it. I wish some of you folks would back off a little bit. Saying some need to have a more positive attitude might sound easy but it's just not. To put it another way, some of us can take a sword striper and some paint and make a perfectly symetrical design on a panel. Should those of us that CAN berate those that can't???
We all walk in different shoes and live in different areas. If Joe tells me things are $hitty for him I believe it.
Doug talks about his house increasing in value $250K in two years............mine has increased maybe $5K in that time.........how do I relate to that?
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
ron being a republican IS LIVING ON ANOTHER PLANET....and there in lies the problem....if you tolerate the way the govt is going and think its all POSITIVE....boy have you got a rude awakening. also i used to live in pa...i understand why you think like you do....hehehehehehehe. as for me i really dont give a **** what you think of my attitude cause most of you cant seem to understand what iam saying....but want to tell me how to change and be totally oblivious to what is actually happing in this business and country. since i have such a depressed attitude, i think ill just go out in the yard and eat worms.......and let you all read you dale carnegie, millionaire mind, iam ok your ok, e.s.t. and any others that ive read and see them as only the writers and publishers making profits from simple things that any fool can write. again...ill say it one more time...i am one of the most pleasant and happy people i know, but i do see the way things are going....and s h i t..... 50 years from now it wont matter how i feel.....hehehehehehehehe
[ July 28, 2005, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
Well, you do create your own reality from how you perceive the world. Keep hanging with the bottom feeders and that's all you can see.
That's not to say that what Joe and Jill see isn't correct but it is not the only way to make a living in signs. It is a hell of a lot tougher in respect to all the plotter people out there. Later I will post an ad in the new yellow pages for an example here of the same thing.
George, I don't buy into any of the extreme ends as far as positive and negative. Surely the business world isn't as bad as it seems when we run into the aforementioned crap, nor is it all rosey that can be fixed by pretending that all you need is a phony positive attitude and follow your dreams.
Posted by Stephen Faulkner (Member # 2511) on :
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
I certainly don't ALWAYS have a positive attitude as those who know me well can attest. I'm no where near perfection. I have bad days like most humans. Not everything I do goes according to plan either and I have made mistakes in the past that have cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars (in real cash). But I don't dwell on those mistakes or the money lost... its behind me.
In most cases I can instantly shake off things that happen through each day and get on with life in a hurry where some folks tend to carry things a bit longer (or a lot longer in some cases).
Janis & I have a deal where only ONE of us is allowed to have a bad day at any given time... unfortunately on the days I want to have one its NOT MY TURN.
I don't believe my life is really that different than most of the folks who are on this board.
I do however take enormous joy in many little things through each day which are fun. I celebrate the small accomplishments we achieve. These things take up more of my thought life than the negative things which happen throughout each day. Truth is I can't do much about bad things which happen anyway, and I certainly try not to worry for it doesn't do much good.
I try and take small steps towards my long and short term goals each day. This is how progress is achieved. Its a rare day when I am able to make large progress towards these same goals. Life isn't like that at least not at my house.
When the phone rings I believe it will be my next big break and I'm excited where some folks might worry it would be bad news... If its some dude soliciting for money or a wrong number I then quickly shift gears and wait for the NEXT call which WILL be the one... I quickly separate the genuine customers from the tire kickers and those who come to SAVE money. With a smile I tell them I want to spend as much as their money as I possibley can, giving them GOOD VALUE instead of a CHEAP PRICE. I send away 95% of the folks who come to me, keeping ONLY the ones that will allow me to do the job right.
Its my experience that if I am cheerful and expect the best of my hired help I will get the same back from them. It works for me!
Each day I am excited about coming out to the shop and creating something new and exciting... about going where we've never gone before. There's always risk in that approach, but its always challenging and fun.
I surround myself with folks who are more talented than I who have this same positive outlook on life, for in their company I have the most to learn.
I've seen folks who merely pretend to be happy... and they can be the most unhappy of all.
And ask just about anyone who was at the Mazeppa meet... I CAN NOT pull a remotely straight line. But instead of driving myself nuts trying I incorprated the wiggly style into my work to make it fresh and innovative.
As David says above I DO BELIEVE you create your own reality from how you percieve the world.
It IS about the small stuff. Adding up many small positive things will change the big picture in a hurry.
-grampa dan
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
geet yer sooo funny! are you and ellen going to jills?
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
Grampa dan, you said that it IS about the small stuff. Those small things are actually very big, aren't they?
I would rather be rich in spirit & poor materialistically than poor in spirit....
I am driving a van that we bought last year for $100, & my junkyard friend whom I have blessed, gave me a free engine for it!!! Yee-ha! It still has a big dent to be popped out, & it needs a paint job, but by golly, it is an ASTRO VAN!!! I have wanted one for years, & now I finally got one, & I don't owe anything on it! You may say, but wouldn't you rather have a new one? Sure, who wouldn't? But if it is meant to be, it will come. I appreciate what I do have right now. I have seen my life in the last 13 years get nothing BUT better & better.
I guess I can honestly say I am not where I would like to be yet, but thank God I am not where I was!!! Things come, in time.
I try not to focus on the things in the world that are temporary, but the things that are forever.
And while I am here, I am gonna keep on learning what I can, & I am going to get better & better at painting signs. Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
quote:Originally posted by David Wright: Well, you do create your own reality from how you perceive the world. Keep hanging with the bottom feeders and that's all you can see.
Ding ding! we have a winner!
[QUOTE] George Perkins said: Saying some need to have a more positive attitude might sound easy but it's just not.
Ding ding another winner!
The reason it's hard to break out of a "funk" is because all emotions are linked to chemical reactions in your brain. Emotions release peptides (endorphins) which stimulate certain receptors in the brain that are designated to handle those emotions. When a certain emotion is ever-present it keeps feeding those receptors, receptors for other emotions DIE because they are not used, and over time your brain physically adapts and re-wires itself to suit its environment.
ie: a crappy attitude starts as just a thought, but if you don't let it go your brain will alter itself so that crappy attitude becomes who you are, physically, and it will be even harder to change it.
The power of thought is amazing. People have the ability to make themselves happy, make themselves physically sick, perpetually angry or depressed, and can even will themselves to death.. just by thinking about it.
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
so true dude!
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
Resist the DARK side!!!
-grampa dan
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
"As a man thinks, so he is." Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
"If your life sucks, fix it"
I dont blame anything or anyone for my situation in life. It (is) a result of the decisions I have made.
2001 was the hardest year for me in over 30 years. I saw the problem and took drastic measures to turn things around. These past few years have consisted of great personal sacrifice but my future has never ever looked so bright. If we think that doing the same thing over and over again will make the problems go away then we are deluding ourselves.
Sometimes drastic change is necessary even if it scares the shyte out of you.
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
I'm with Bob on his comments. Life is all about choices and we make them every day whether we realise it or not.
When we resolve to make drastic changes we must also realise that it involves some risk. And most often we need to give things a realistic timeframe.
Write down some goals... and write down what you think needs doing to achieve these same goals. Then do it.
Build it and they will come!
-grampa dan
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Ron,
You are exactly right.
Life is what you make it. Bad things are always going to happen. Its how you deal with them that makes a difference.
The World is constantly changing. It seems to me that the people who are the least happy and have the most difficulties are those who are unable or are unwilling to adapt.
My happiness and success in this business or any other is up to no one but me, not some politician, bureacrat or competitor.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Hey Glenn...Nice to see a couple of posts by you again!
Since I have been around here long enough to remember what you and your family and your business have endured in the past, I totally agree with what you are saying.
quote:Life is what you make it. Bad things are always going to happen. Its how you deal with them that makes a difference.
You have handled your setbacks admirably in the past and I know that your success is based on that ability.
We all have "good fortune" tossed our way some times and we all have "bad luck" happen. We just have to let the bad luck roll off our back and embrace the good fortune.
I don't include natural disasters like folks such as you and others have experienced, but a lot of the time both the good and the bad luck are received as a result of our own actions.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
I have to agree with Ernie Balch!!
quote:If you work for small business owners who are also struggling to get by you won't be able to get much for your work.
On the other hand, if you sell to large corporations money is not a problem. You can charge them a fair amount for your work.
Think about the most successful signmakers you know, do any of them serve the low end customers? I bet their customers have plenty of money.
You are RIGHT ON Ernie!!!
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Some thoughts about all this:
I honestly think this area may be worse than the others discussed in this thread. But cool things are happening. I'm wrapping up a window job that I got from a phone number on another window job. You know, name and number in the lower corner.
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These are times that require A LOT of attention to detail, and that's how to rise above this mess. Specifically: coming up with designs that catch people's eye, but aren't much more time consuming, and getting paid what your rate is, not the going rate. DESIGN IS THE KEY.Being able to click my mind into that 'wild design mode', without adding a lot of extra stuff to the job. Just question all the norms.I had three calls within the last three weeks based on design of other jobs I did. Just unheard of for me.
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What was that line from the Alman Brothers? "One way out babe..." Design. They can't want it 'till they see it (on someone's window).
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Where would this BB be without Dan?? There would be the proverbial black hole.
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N.S.F.O. Not setling for ordinary.
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There is a way out, stop playing on the same field.
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Window painting is my favorite medium. To have this come alive is really cool.
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This isn't turning out quite right, I can't with words on a screen convey the details and the emotion.
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I do have something different to sell, and I'm going to try selling it.
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I'm going to set aside a little money here and there to buy supplies to build some cool sculpture. Put it right out front. The word will get around.
Posted by Mike O'Neill (Member # 470) on :
quote:Money and the Sign Biz (Or lack of..)
I stayed out of this for a while, Frankly I find the topic somewhat distressing.I totally disagree with it.
There is an enormous amount of money to be made in the sign industry, look at the number of 'HUGE', not large, sign companies that are serving national companies like Walmart, McDonald's, Xerox and other corporations too numerous to mention. Medium sized business also thrive, look at the majority of franchise shops that have survived 5 years or more, these are successful businesses that are are not just surviving, but thriving.
The small independent sign shops that are suffering in this economy aren't suffering from lack of talent, they are however suffering from a lack of business skills. There is money out there to be made, but it takes real business skills to organize a shop to produce efficiently and effectively, to manage changes in market and consumer demand, to stay abreast of technological demand.
I see a lot of talented people on this board who spend half their time weeding vinyl, when a kid at $7.00 per hour could do that. Artists digging post holes for next to nothing. The trick is to recognise what your specific talent is and to create a support group of people around you who can keep you in your niche. Think of a Dentist who never leave his dental chair where he generates 300-800 $/hour. He lets his receptionist deal with scheduling, his bookkeeper deal with billing, he stays in the 'slot', the earning slot, his support people take care of the mundane.
Just a thunk...
Posted by Frank Magoo (Member # 3950) on :
GEET...... Posted by Fred Weiss (Member # 3662) on :
Like Mike, I too have been holding back on this thread. And I couldn't agree with Mike more.
It really isn't about one thing. Being a good to great designer/artist is a plus ... not an answer. Being efficient and productive ... likewise. A positive attitude ... ditto. Developing sound business practices ... yup. Putting together enough elements of success, both financial and self-gratifying ones, is more likely the key.
And for each of us, that combination is unique.
One thing I've found helpful over the years is to realize when I'm being emotional in business. Not to be confused with having a passion for what you do (essential for success). Emotional in positive and negative ways is what I'm trying to describe.
For example, the franchise shop up the street is doing $500,000 gross a year and you're doing $75,000. You can analyze the shop and very easily see lots of things that are being done differently. Some things may not be something you'd want to do and others you could easily do. So you pick and choose what suits you and business improves. That's a good thing.
Or you look at the same situation and conclude that the franchise shop is ruining the craft, vinyl is a villain, magnetic signs are beneath you, etc. etc. etc. That's emotional. Go back and read Ricky Jackson's post about becoming a franchise shop.
And I'm not saying you have to do vinyl or make mags to be successful ... just trying to illustrate my point. You have to be good at what you do and do it efficiently and have a passion for it and tailor what you do to your market and you have to have good ways to reach the market and you have to provide products and services that your market wants. What suits you and the combination of pluses at your disposal will be unique. And looking at it unemotionally is central to make good choices and improving your business.
Doug Allen and I talked recently on the phone for a pretty long while. He mentioned interest in comments I had made regarding some specifics in my business. This was in the vein of adding and eliminating various products and services. This in an overall effort to achieve the highest return on my time with my given set of capabilities.
The answer for me, and not put forth as an answer for anyone else was to change the things that were providing a below average return and to focus on those that were providing an above average return. The second part of the change was to do something to improve marketing.
The conclusion, for me, was to move the business into a good location for bringing in a steady flow of new business. We swallowed hard and leased a location in a plaza anchored by an Office Depot. At the time that amounted to about 20% of gross sales but by doing this we had no further need for any advertising budget or to pay any sort of commissions to sales personnel. We also focused on an efficient floor plan combined with equipment which would enhance our productivity so that we did not have any need to employ others. The final choices had to do with limiting what we do. After a fair amount of analysis, we eliminated those things which would require being away from our store. We make the best return on our time when we're in the store selling or producing work. So we don't do installs, deliveries, or onsite sales calls or go out and take measurements etc.
The result was that by our third month we hit volume of five figures (our in the black sales point) and never looked back. We didn't compromise our prices or our quality ... we just limited what we do to what we do well.
That was five years ago and the Mrs. and I still have no employees. We reinvest in the business here and there and have been able to enjoy an average to above average income from our efforts for all but three months of that five years. We're friends with many of the shops around us as well. And we receive more than our share of creative satisfaction from our efforts.
That worked for us. What works for you?
Posted by Stephen Faulkner (Member # 2511) on :
Karyn!!.... we're here for the summer
Had plenty of good intentions but we ain't goin no where for awhile
Maybe we'll hook up with Magoo and go see the premire of this movie !!
"SCOTTY !!!!... get your own damn pop*corn"!!!
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
"I don't buy into any of the extreme ends as far as positive and negative. Surely the business world isn't as bad as it seems when we run into the aforementioned crap, nor is it all rosey that can be fixed by pretending that all you need is a phony positive attitude and follow your dreams" THANK YOU DAVID.....that sums it up really well and like i said i do have the greatest attitude in the world....... but it doesnt block out the FACTS of what is going on around you. and ive said iam doing AS WELL AS I WANT TO BE(business end)....thats what most need to understand....
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Hey GEET I saw "The Junkyard" on PHX news a day or two ago and it made me think of you.. I was lookin for you in the background then realized I don't know what you look like... I forget what the story was, maybe giant scorpions running off with the Mayor's dog to feed their young or massive dust devils tearing through and leaving a path of cleanliness.
Posted by Michael R. Bendel (Member # 5847) on :
Hello Mark, I'm a new member, so sorry for the late response. Just a little positive prospective... To "take home" $100,000 per year you would have to clear $357.00 per day @ a 5 day per week, 280 day year. If you are VERY motivated & have a good client following, this is possible. Obviously ownership/lease/garage come into play.
I have 3 employees & myself, an 8000 sq.ft. shop & have 65'crane & 50' bucket, gross in the $400,000 range & work 4 days a week. The equity in the building is a source for income also... but... I sit behind a desk, bid, babysit & put out fires all day & yearn for the days when I worked alone & actually hand lettered! In conclusion... I don't think $100,000 take home is an unreasonable goal. Although you MUST put out a great product & put in FULL days. And yes... a few weekends. (I'm making an "x" with my fingers at the thought of that). Good Luck & enjoy. Posted by E. Balch (Member # 3545) on :
Dave, Thanks for the kind words.
We analyzed the profits for the last few years and found some things that should have been obvious (but we just didn't see them before).
1)We only make money on big orders, (duh) small orders are killing us. 2)Carved signs - our favorite, are the least profitable, (material costs and labor). 3)Screen printed shirts - are the most profitable (I hate screen printing so we only do big jobs). 4)80% of our profits come from only 2 customers that place big orders year after year. We do almost all of our profitable work during May and August. We might as well take the rest of the year off, cause all we do is break even.
We should avoid the small one time customers and concentrate on government and corporations that have ongoing needs.
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)I've looked at other trades pulling down money, and alot of them are associatted with debt. I'm not ranting against debt, that's you're own choice. I just wonder if money isn't so closely monitored if it's part of a house loan or such. I mean if people had to write a check for the full amount to the carpenter of electrician that built their house, Woe Jack! Maybe not, I'm just pondering.![[Dunno]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
) I think the problem is that most people haven't decided what, exactly, they want to accomplish...much beyond earning an honest living and maybe having a few creature comforts. This tends to lead to short-term thinking, like focussing more on saving money than on making it...whether buying equipment or materials.![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
hahaha
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... but when the after holidays slump started picking up, I was in the shop every night (OK, yeah, partly to pay for driving a new truck ![[Applause]](graemlins/applause.gif)
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lol, did you know I LOVE to pick on you...?)
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