I don't know what to say...this artwork from a "designer" seems to speak for itself.
[ January 06, 2004, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: Kissymatina ]
Posted by Greg McRoberts (Member # 3501) on :
Ouch...
Posted by Kimberly Zanetti (Member # 2546) on :
This is a job for THE SIGN POLICE!
Posted by Terry Whynott (Member # 1622) on :
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
Aye Chihuahua!!!
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
Is that a SKID MARK ? !
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
EEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
...and. But this could be your golden opportunity to re- design a logo for 'em.
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Received this file from a friend who has to deal with it. Thankfully it's not my problem, I cringe everytime I glance at it. Think I'd be physically ill if I had to look at it for any extended period of time...basically more than 30 seconds at a time.
Forgot to add: WR your guess is as good at ours. We think the thing on the left is suppost to be a barber pole (made of hair???) maybe...
[ January 06, 2004, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Kissymatina ]
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
WOW the designs you can make with a Sharpie.. It just boggles the mind
Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
Why not invite these people to Letterville so they can see how their logo is getting beat up on. Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
I dont see any problem? Only one more different typestyle and it would be perfect.
Posted by Steve Barba (Member # 431) on :
Yea Bob- More Brush Script!
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
Yeah, I bet someone hit 'em some graduate school art lingo... "Of course the tension with these forms is due to the closure of unharmonious patterns shown in the shades of these colors. To a certain degree the juxtaposition of the tertiary hues has become neither neuter or flirtatious. I suppose this would seem likely especially since the eye tends to perceive and group large elements of mass into simple but logical arrangements of empathetic rapprochement." ....HUH!! OH, yeah....That logo looks greeeaaat! Hope Wayne cuts hair better than he picks out logos!
[ January 06, 2004, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Jane Diaz ]
Posted by Greg McRoberts (Member # 3501) on :
Kissy, your friend is jerking your chain, right? That thing can't be for real.
Besides, friends don't let friends produce crap!
Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :
If THAT isn't bad enough, we have a BARBER here that DOES signs! Posted by Tony Vickio (Member # 2265) on :
When I see something like this, I always wonder what the customer paid the "designer"?
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
Obvious he thinks more of himself then his occupation.
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Kissy posted that at my request. This was sent to me as a sign layout several weeks ago, and in a phone conversation this morning, she commented about some gag-me designs she's seen. So I e-mailed this horror show to her, then asked her to post it for criticism.
The barber didn't draw this; it was done for him as a "favor" by a friend who calls herself a graphic designer. He apparently doesn't know any better and has used it for a lot of printed material, advertising, and even a frosted-glass window. Like a lot of businesspeople, he put a sign at the bottom of his priorities, so by the time I was called, it was too late to sell him anything decent.
So for now, at least, his sign goes up just like this. But here's a question for honest debate: How do you make the best of that situation, without alienating a customer? I'm not the "low bidder" on this job; actually I'm charging more because I can solve his specific installation issues, which other shops here don't seem to want to deal with. At this point I'm content to take his money and give him what he wants. But don't look for this one in my portfolio.
Posted by Danny Busselle (Member # 3746) on :
all I have to Say.
Posted by Greg McRoberts (Member # 3501) on :
Cam,
In the agency business, when a client would come to us with a better-left-dead logo, we sometimes found the best way was to make it semi-disappear in a blind emboss. It was still there, but much less offensive to the viewing public.
We'd tell the client that it added "elegance" to the project while it would really get rid of the hideous logo and direct attention to the more important advertising message. But honestly, I don't know how that could work with this thing.
I don't see how it could be hidden easily.
Posted by Mike Languein (Member # 319) on :
Now, Chris -- what did you tell me about that simple minded X-In-A-Box ?
"He must feel it works for him"
I hope I'm not quoting you out of context Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Well Kissy and Cam.
I don't care what the logo FFFFFFFFFFFFFFing concept is......
But does it conform to all needs? (Signs/Print/Letterhead/Vehicles?)
Show me **** on the Sheet! But now I have to make it work! Posted by fayette pivoda (Member # 4339) on :
Hey folks, I'm a newby to this site and I think I like you all already.
I keep a policy that when a client even mentions the word 'designer', my price doubles automaticly. Experience has shown me that on one end are the so called "professionally art schooled designers" who have that 'holier-than-you-lowly-mopjockey' attitude (but no qualms when taking advantage of my time or experience), and then at the other end are examples such as this, either way, 'designer' jobs always present new challenges I just don't see need to endure anymore.
Of course, you throw that 'designer' moniker in the brew and some clients get all hot and excited thinking they're getting a real piece of art, and for free too? Uh-huh, sure you are, fella.
But fact is I would do the job after informing the client I dislike seeing their good moneys spent on poor design, if I get a perk of interest, I'd do my educate them upwards routine, if not, I'd scan it and get that job out of the shop, and fast too, none of my labels will go on it, though.
And sometimes I'll do an 'oops' type mistake just to make them read better. You know, sometimes its just easier to apologize after the fact than it is to get permission up front to make a change, I'm lucky in that only once did a client refuse to pay until I made it right.
And hey, pleased to meet you all.
Posted by Jeff Ogden (Member # 3184) on :
I think I would feel obligated to at least show him something better, just so he can see the difference. If he still wants to use the ugly one, at least you'll feel better knowing you tried. I'd keep the new version simple in this case...it will lessen the shock when he sees it for the first time.
Posted by Robert Thomas (Member # 1356) on :
the con-temporary barbershop.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
If it had only incorporated a smiley face and a butterfly...it could have been perfect
hehehe
Kinda reminds me of a jailhouse tatoo.
Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
I like Gregs approach ...but...Id take it one step farther and do it White on white...it would be totally subtle and understated to the point where it wouldn't be offensive at all.
That skid mark has got to be the residue left over from a agood layout he obviously had and "cut" away.
Geezus!
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
This one is history. The sign's done; out the door it goes. My sense is that, yes, I could show the customer a better design, but if he really can't tell that this one is dreck, how would he know anything else is better?
Had this come to me earlier in the process, I might have gently steered him to something better. Remember, though, this design was a freebie from a friend; I don't do free logos, I'm not his friend, and if he thinks this one is fine, why would he pay me to do something different? My reason for having Kissy post it is as much to show an example of what all of us have to deal with from art-school dropouts-turned-graphic-designers.
I'm just glad I'm not the one who paid a so-called art school to teach me this kind of shyt and call it "design."
Posted by Lotti Prokott (Member # 2684) on :
I would raise the price for the sign to cover another ten minutes of my work, and show him an improved version of this "logo". Just for my own sake... Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
While all things posted here are valid points, there's one more to consider:
If his friend spent the time to design that, although it's not what any of us would let out the door, maybe the client feels he's stuck with it to spare his friend's feelings?
If you did a freebie for a friend then they turned around and paid someone else to do something better, would you not be miffed? Wouldnt you wonder why your friend didnt offer to pay YOU for a better re-design?
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Some businesses are built on their reputation. A barber shop is a one on one personal relationship with his clients. So, very likely in his mind (the barber) all he needs is any ol' thing to mark his spot. And, his customers are just like him. Would they know or care about good sign design
Posted by Glenn S. Harris (Member # 2190) on :
This says one thing to me: opportunity!
Recently a business owner came to us for a vehicle job because of a nice one we did for his competitor. Of course he has a "logo"....
Well, we asked him if we could get creative with his vehicle design. He said "By all means!"
After talking about a price (that would include all that nice design work), and obtaining a deposit, we produced a nice proposal in which his "logo" had been "tweaked" considerably.
He LOVED it. Next we are completely redoing his storefront sign and interior graphics to reflect the new "look" we've created for him.
He is a very happy customer.
G
Posted by Ted Nesbitt (Member # 3292) on :
Looks to me like someone got BRUSHSCRIPT for Christmas and decided they'd put it to use right away as an accent...
Posted by Dennis Veenema (Member # 833) on :
I think most of you need to go back and read what Cam asked
quote: But here's a question for honest debate: How do you make the best of that situation, without alienating a customer?
He didn't ask; "what do you do to get your own personal satisfaction out of this job?"
Cam did the business thing to do. He read the customer. The customer was happy with what he had. If not he would not have mentioned the fact that a friend did the design. The design itself was not open for debate.
I'm sure everyone has heard the term "starving artist" That applies to the majority of artists because they spend all their time on the work itself, but never learn the concept of how to sell or market it. Is that you? Do you drive the customer away simply because you don't like the design, and he/she should not like it either?
If that's how you feel you better go back to the self-righteous, sanctimonious I don't shop at Walmart post.
There comes a time to think like a business person and address the concept of pleasing the customer and making money. If you can't you may find the last sign you make is your own! "Out of Business"
Posted by Robert Larkham (Member # 2913) on :
Let's have a contest....everyone recreate this mess and let's see what everyone comes up with.
Posted by Kristie Byrnes (Member # 3510) on :
Cam...Just for the record, I'm an "art school drop-out" with a very sucessful business. Almost everything I do is my own creation, but on ocassion I do receive designs that customers give me and if that is what they want, it's their choice and that is what I do. But over-all, my "drop-out" work speaks for itself and I am continually busy, with many satisfied repeat customers, not to mention new ones all the time. Guess I feel that was an unfair statement. I think that any one of us could take anyone else's design and come up with one we feel would be better, but it has to please whom we are doing it for, and when that happens we are sucessful. As was previously said in this post, our job is to work for our customer in the capacity that they want us to, not solely to stoke our own egos. And furthermore, I've been in the "starving artist" arena, but hard work and dedication, and humbleness are key in my opinion. I took graphic design at an art school, but dropped out because I didn't like "computer" art and self taught myself the art of lettering, pin striping and airbrushing, along with sign making, but what I learned in school didn't hurt anything either. So, again in my opinion, if that is what that particular barber wanted, it's ultimately his choice. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Hey Kristie, Your story is great! I.M.H.O. you're an art school success story. You managed to cut your losses before they really corrupted you. I'm not saying that art schools are bad. That would be like saying all franchises crank out garbage or all sign painters are drunks.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
That's what I get for slamming art-school dropouts. Chances are it's the dropouts doing better design, if only because they woke up to the crap they were being taught.
I say this because I have an employee with an art degree in computerized photo-imaging and graphic design, yet he has virtually zero design skills by any reasonable standard. That's the problem. The teaching of art has no reasonable standards - it's jargon-filled nonsense which boils down to telling students there are no objective standards, that any design is equal to another, based on how the artist "feels" about their work. This poisonous crap is the infection that has sickened the humanities overall, art is a symptom of the greater sisease.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
Which art schools?
RISD Cranbrook Art Center College of Design Otis
or some small college coarse, there is a difference.....
(Art Center drop out)
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
I dropped out after 2 quarters at the Art Institute of Pittsburgh. Why? #1: It didn't matter if you had any God-given talent. If you had $$ to pay for the classes & supplies, the teachers would pass you throught with a D. (I did get straight A's) #2: I didn't want to learn about computers! (they were just being introduced) #3: It made something that I had enjoyed doing for a lifetime seem like a chore. What did I learn @ AIP? I had a really cool old layout artist as a teacher. Back in the day she did ads for Gimbels and Horne's, etc. She actually smoked in class! We had to hand-render boring typestyles like Stymie and Helvetica. I learned that Os,Qs,Ss, and any roundish letter or numeral is slightly bigger than a straight letter. Wow...THAT was really worth $2,000! I have learned more from a $29 Mike Stevens book than I ever did at Art School. That said, I really wish I would have gone to college like I wanted to. A purple haired pierced AIP dropout circa 1980. And yes, the barber shop logo ain't pretty. But I have seen worse!
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Dennis
Nice answer to "Grab the Money and Run!"
I'm sure everyone has heard the term "starving artist" That applies to the majority of artists because they spend all their time on the work itself, but never learn the concept of how to sell or market it. Is that you? Do you drive the customer away simply because you don't like the design, and he/she should not like it either?
How does your Logo Look?
I have a problem with ....If That is the why they want it! then thats what they get!
I like doing projects that will repeat the work!!!!!! Not kill the....Business because of (POOR IMAGE)
I would pass on it if the customer is not open to new views of it!
[ January 07, 2004, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Back to Cam's question of what maybe to do with something like this.
The customer may not allow ANY tweaking of the logo, but if he did: My first thought was the problem with the word "the" sticking up the way it does. Granted, since it and the words "contemporary barber" are upper and lower case, the negative space between them and the first line of copy would still be irregular, but oh well. How would a field surgeon handle a mangled patient? The best way he/she could. Anyway, even if the "the" were lowered, then there's that "scratchy line thing" underneath, that locks in a whole lotta bad negative space. Soooo, how about moving the scrathy thing up between the two lines of copy, it might distract from the irregular negative space there. Then do the "Toupe barber pole thingy" in a much lower contrast color or value. Since my resident picture isn't sent in yet, right about now you're probably imagining that I look like the "doctor" in the Cannonball run movie, with this talk of field surgeons, and all. Hey! If you think I look that great, just vwait 'till I vwork on your company logo. Heh heh heh.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Ok, art school designers shouldn't be slammed in my opinion. It's the colleges that take advantage of some of the marginal designer's pipe dreams of making it big in the art world that is the real problem. The design colleges are in the business of making money, just like everyone's sign business here. An education? Sure, but after you shell out. Some are quite phenominal, others aren't. As much ado as they make about the education you'll receive, they aren't going to give it away. Like everything, their main focus is money.
I have a degree from Kendall School of Design in Grand Rapids. They now are affiliated with Ferris State University. I learned a lot, but mostly it was a focused setting in which you could practice honing your God given talent.
Two things are key: The teacher AND the student. Kendall made you bring in a portfollio for a review before they would accept you. This sounds impressive, but the fact is...they let everyone in. They made a big show of it, but there were plenty of students who were living in fantasy land thinking they had a shot in the art world when in fact they should have been bolting bumpers onto cars at GM. The teachers should have sat these students down and told them flat out they sucked instead of passing along fake compliments and encouraging them into spending gobs of money for four years.
So, the student has to have at least a couple ounces of talent to begin with.
Now the teachers: Some really sucked. I could out illustrate them walking in my first day to class. Then there were a couple that were outstanding and a major positive influence.
I always looked at it this way: I could tell crap when I heard it and when I saw it. The teachers that were there because they couldn't cut it in the art world were easily identified, and I did what I had to get the grade in their class, but didn't fall for anything they said unless I felt it was legitimate. You can't be naive going in.
I once got into a verbal argument in a full class with an art history teacher. She was showing slides of some "artist"....I think he was Russian, name might have been Kandinsky. Anyway, this artist was the greatest in her opinion because he came up with the idea of painting a white canvass completely white. No image, no colors...just plain white. She went on and on about the earthshaking concept.
I was sitting in the back of the room, and started laughing and making cracks. She stopped the class and asked if I had something I wanted to add. I said, "Yeah, that's not art." Boy was she ****ed. She tried to out argue me with her Masters in art history...but I stood my ground. I told her I didn't care what she said, I didn't think painting white paint on a white canvass was art and I thought it was completely stupid.
So, my point is a talented individual with a discriminating mind can get a certain amount of tangible benefits from art school. And the experience of being given projects with deadlines is worthwhile too. And being forced to maintain a schedule is good training for the work world also. And the talented friends I made who inpsired, influenced, and helped hone me were very valuable.
Kendall was a very small and very expensive private design school specializing in Illustration, Commercial art, and furniture design.
But, one friend who got kicked out of Kendall, was one of the most talented illustrators I've met. He could paint anybody and anything perfectly. The day he walked out of Kendall with his art supplies under his arm was the day he started working for himself as a free lance illustrator...and has been, successfully ever since.
So it goes both ways....school is good, experience is good. Both, hand in hand can make you really good. Some people don't need a lick of school...they're naturally great.
Holy crap this is long. School is great, and I recommend it to everyone. You're gonna learn something....but you can't hang on every word of the professor. Pick and choose.
Edit: Oh I forgot, you can't underestimate the value of name dropping. I got my first job because my boss knew of Kendall's reputation as a great art school. I was in like flint with their name on my resume.
[ January 08, 2004, 12:15 AM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
My central complaint is not with art school graduates or dropouts; it's with dealing with crap designs that that someone used their degree to push onto a customer.
When a customer designs some wad of spelkus on a computer, they generally will at least have a clue that somebody might do something better. But an incompetent "professional designer", armed with the ego they bought at art school, can't seem to accept any form of criticism of their work. Like architects, they know it all whether it makes sense or not, look, it says so, right there on that expensive diploma. No amount of practical, real world experience matters; the idea that what looks good on paper may not work on a sign is incomprehensible to them.
That doesn't say that every trained designer or architect is a schmuck, far from it. I've worked with some terrific designers who are doing top-notch work. Like in every other field, the best are bright enough to know they don't know everything; they can admit that someone who works on a different scale, in a different medium, with different viewing conditions, might have some constructive criticism about a design. They aren't the problem. The problem is with those of marginal competence who's insecurities are threatened by criticism, who use a degree as an excuse to push crap on people and then bristle at criticism like it's a personal affront to have anything questioned. But then I don't quite know why I need to explain this. Look at the design that was posted at the top of this thread. It speaks for itself.
[ January 08, 2004, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: Cam Bortz ]
Posted by Glenn S. Harris (Member # 2190) on :
I was an art major in college for a while. It rocked! Where else can you draw real live neked chix for a couple hours a day, meet lots of pretty girls & impress them with your work?
I wish I could've finished, as far as I'm concerned, the whole experince was well worth the price. I went to a smaller school though.
I do have to say that I've learned more on my own though... but hey I was 20 years old! How much was I possibly going to learn anyway. All I cared about was girls & partying.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
You shouldn't have to explain Cam, I actully did understand what you were getting at-to many semi-schooled designers push a lot more crap design than actual talented and "real schooled" designers. I work for a very talented group of designers, occasionaly we do a crap peice that anyone here could do way better. As a high end graphic designer, I appreciate the fact that you'all can be honest and design saavy enough to know a bad logo-thats why I keep coming here-I know I will learn something here. I worked at a few sign shops, and I know how designrs can be, now that I am one, I occasionally turn into a "design weenie", the stereotype is well deserved, I know way too many times that a "designed" peice by a "graphic designer" is either impossiible to build or they never take into consideration the side or back of the sign, the best way I use to counter bad design is by offering suggestions to the client, or offering my services to a "unschooled" or "signage challenged" designers. They in turn usually appreciate the help, and help und0 the stereotype that signguys are just sub-par graphic production jerks.
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
I gotta get in on this one...As a sign shop owner who just went shopping for an additional artist, I think I can speak with some authority. I wholeheartedly agree with Todd. Kendall is a wonderful school. My lead designer is a graduate from there. My other is from Finlandia in upper Michigan.
But, ALOT of these spoiled, no talent rich kids whose daddy's paying their way seem to be of the impression that they will become an artist with a few classes. ARTISTS ARE BORN, NOT MADE. You are an artist from the womb. Then, to top it all off, they are lied to by their financial councilors that they will make $75 grand their first year in some high powered marketing firm. GET A LIFE.
People do art because they love it first. Then, many are capable of making a decent living BECAUSE THEY HAVE EXCEPTIONAL TALENT, not because it says BFA behind their name. That opening logo is a prime example of which I rant. I have been lucky. I used to feel college was unnecessary, but I feel a talented artist can be enhanced with additional training....isn't that why we have meets?
(edited for spelling)
[ January 08, 2004, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
Posted by Delzell (Member # 1965) on :
Wow, you guys are making me really appricate my Major Art teachers at OSU. I thought they were normal but I see it could of been bad. I especially liked the one who did not teach how to paint like a photo but with imagination. And the imagination counted more then those whom I thought were good because they could make it look so real.
quote: "Imagination is more important that knowledge." -Albert Einstien
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
Having gone to school doesn't make one a bad designer. But having spent years and years at even the best school doesn't necessarily make one a brilliant designer either... and that applies to most any profession.
In the end its about talent, experience and a burning passion to do good work.
Janis often calls me a prima donna but I am extremely picky about the work I take on. These days I even insist on designing absolutely everything that I build. I would do the same if someone came to me with a logo like this. If the customer was intent on staying with his design I would send them on up the road.
I will occasionally design something that is passed on to someone else to build. Perhaps we'll see it pictured here someday in a post similar to this. But then again I don't wear the title of 'graphic designer' or any other title for that matter as I'm not 'qualified' in any job I do.
-dan
[ January 08, 2004, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Very well said Rick...and a lot less lengthy than my post. Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
So.....
What would I do with this one?
I'd remind myself that some people , regardless of their claims of art abilities, often produce designs for friends and family. That personal perspective is hard to overcome at times and why waste the time trying. Sometimes you actually get one that is appealing and a challenge to reproduce...unlike this one. Sadly, those are few and far between.
Nature of the beast.
Cam, I think you handled the whole thing a best as possible given the circumstances following the rule "The customer is always right." They have commited themselves to the artwork in other mediums and although an improvement is possible, they don't necessarily feel it is warranted. Not every job that comes in the door is going to make the cover of "Signs of the Times", and although it pains some of us to do this work, it does pay the bills.
Personally, I agree that sign is not going to be a "portfolio" piece, and I certainly wouldn't take a minute to sign a corner as the person wwho produced it, but the end result is that the customer met your price, was happy with the sign and their check cleared at the bank.
As far as all the school stuff mentioned in this post, I'm the graduate of a vocational high school commercial art course. Somewhere around here I have a little card that says I'm "certified" as one. Not sure if it really matters that much 25 years later. Gone are the days of rubber cement, Letraset and the paste up techniques I was taught back then and now I have a daughter at BC in art courses, learning different techniques and styles.
The joke around here is "She gets the sheepskin, but I've got the time in."
Most of my education has been the "School of Hard Knocks" and to me it has been invaluable. Her's will be formal and equally valuable as well.
It's not only what we learn, how or where we got the education, but how we apply it. That's what defines "style" in this biz.
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